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Tony,

You are correct. It is impossible to be orthodox Eastern Catholic. It is ontologically so. The rules and litmus tests change like the weather.

There is no room for change of heart or an honest appraisal of what Eastern theology and spirituality means. Improvement in increments via learning and application isn't considered as grand and valid as massive overhauls at gun point.

It can be frustrating though.

In all, it is ontologically impossible to be anything or anyone other than what others make you out to be. One is not defined by one's character, praxis or teaching, but by what others want to perceive you to be. This makes any attempt to get it right more difficult. Because others elsewhere refuse to get with the program, they, and not us, are used to stereotype us. Those who try hard to live out the Eastern praxis are rarely, if ever, used to stereotype those others. Not allowed to happen. Eastern Catholics are not allowed to be fully Eastern. Many believe it is easier for Eastern Christians to be Latins or the like, but never the other way around.

The rules of this game stink. But I am no longer in the ministry business, so I don't really need to justify anything anymore except to live out my faith, worship God in my Eastern tradition, and reflect on what I learned from experience.

Unfortunately, if there was some semblence of leadership in Pittsburgh, it would be a different story. But some things are hard to come by. Some things never come at all. According to some, 'ecclesia' is a necessary evil. T'is an unfortunate circumstance. Some of us are still holding are breath. So if we turn blue, please feel free to call 9-1-1.

Orthodox church communities joined the Unia one by one. Can they not become Eastern one by one? If Orthodox at Brest or Uzhorod became Catholic, does that mean ALL of Orthodoxy became Catholic? Of course not. But according to your measuring rod, because the Byzantine Catholics can't get it right in Western Pa, we here in NE Ohio are not permitted to establish any integrity in Eastern Christian praxis.

There is nothing I can say but in my day to day living out of the Eastern Christian idea. Don't blame me for Elko.

Are you contemplating becoming a priest? I hope not. You will be like that Serbian Orthodox priest who yelled at me for ten minutes when I visited his parish temple. I was blamed for all the Latinizations in his church! I didn't bring any ducks.

God bless,
Joe Thur

PS: Please pray for two friends of mine who are Eastern Christian and are contemplating becoming Jewish. They lost faith in any Eastern Church, Catholic and Orthodox. Bad experience in both. Christ looks more appetizing to them in Jewish light than what Christians made him out to be.

Tony,

You make a fair point regarding the Roman and European editions of our liturgical books. If they still have the filioque or references to the Immaculate Conception then they need to be revised to be more faithful to our Orthodox Byzantine inheritance. As I have stated, the restoration of an authentic Orthodox Byzantine patrimony is a multigenerational task.

I thought I had a complete set of the Uniontown books. The 1985 Basilian Menaion in my collection does use the Latin date of December 8 but gives the title of �Conception of St. Anne�. The term �Immaculate Conception� is not used. Nor is it used in any other Basilian text in my collection. Unfortunately I do not have the corresponding Russian and Greek texts with which to compare the Basilian text to. Can you cite the specific Basilian text you are referring to?

I do not doubt that there are local usages that employ the Latin theology of this feast. They have are not the normative nor have they ever been the normative texts of the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church.

Admin

Thanks Joe! I always knew you had it in you.

Administrator,

I do not have the Uniontown books in front of me but I have others from Europe, let's use the U-town example as it is more germane to what we are doing here. If memory serves me there are litija verses for that feast in those books...there are none in any Orthodox books that I have examined (you look too please). Look carefully at those texts, do they read like the others? Is the same language used? I can tell you what the Slavonic behind them is if you want to know but I think you can figure it out on your own. Go out and check it out yourself and tell me if I have posted incorrect information about this. I am trying to discuss this in a reasoned unemotional manner, please respond in-kind.

Tony

Tony,

Maybe you can explain why that Serbian Orthodox priest yelled at ME for the Latinizations in THEIR Church? They weren't part of the Unia or Pittsburgh, were they? I am confused, Tony. I remember vividly the ten minute finger wagging I got during my visit there. I never went back, of course. Didn't want to be considered part of a papal plot. I can still remember his beard (MUST be Orthodox!?) and his teeth. The thought of the visit still sends shivers down my spine.

Joe

Hey Tony...administrator..and all who are posting a lot in this forum..I was wondering something...

Today I met with Fr. Apostolos Hill at my local Greek orthodox Cathedral (Assumption Cathedral Denver, CO)and we were talking about the Filioque and he gave me a copy if the recent "Agreed Statement of the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation", and I was surprised at one of suggestions the document made to the bishops of both churches.

"That the Catholic Church, as a consequence of the normative and irrevocable dogmatic value of the reed of 381, use the original Greek text alone in making translations of that Creed for catechetical and liturgical use."

Now I know that this recent document is not offical and it doesnt mean union has been established or anything like that, but from the document it seems as if the some Catholics are willing to throw out the filioque fro the sake of unity.

any comments........

Heheheh this is the "Byzantine Survivor Forum."

It's time to vote a member out.

I vote Ben out of the forum.

All I see is his ranting and raving against the Catholic Church.

All I see is that he's an angry man who have issues with the Catholic Church.

If he wants to go over to the Orthodox Church, then HE SHOULD GO THERE!!! But LEAVE us alone! That we don't have to tolerate his intolerance. It's like "SHUT UP already!"

If he wants to believe whatever he wants to believe...FINE! But should we have to have him shove his beliefs on us and then trash talking about the Catholic Church?

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Hey Deaf Byzantine,

What did I do that offended you so deeply?!

I am not ranting ans raving and I am most certainly not bashing the Catholic Church! I have no idea what you are talkign about and why you have such anger toward sme when you dont even know me!

I obvisouly joined the wrong byzantine Catholic online community..I had heard you were all nice and friendly...but boy after your post.....I dunno anymore!

God bless!

And forgive us for returning to Orthodoxy in communion with Rome, to the ideals of the Unia, one parish at a time, one mission at a time. Please forgive us also for wishing to determine our own identity on our own terms. As Joe well said we have been all too complacent in letting either the RCs or the Orthodox outside of communion with Rome tell us who we are.

I realize that the greatest fear of some Orthodox is that we precisely do that, because for many who "doxed out" latinizations are an easy scapegoat.

Just one point, not all Serb priests are all bad. Our local Serb priest recently gave us two boxes of his best incense until we had an order come in. And yes, he knew da** well we were Greek Catholics.

Also, the pews, organs and even neon crosses (I am not kidding) in one Greek parish I visited can't be blamed on Brest, either.

I would venture to say that for most lay Roman Catholics in my area, the finer theological point escapes them entirely, and most priests in my area wouldn't have a problem with a change. They are sensitive to the issue and surprisingly open about it. The missalettes are reissued often, all that would be required would be an edit to the newer editions.

People are creatures of habit, that's why we still use an archaic form of the Our Father, people are used to it that's all.

Believe it or not, I think there would be bigger fights in the local parishes over gender-inclusive language than the Filioque. If it came to pass don't expect any 30 years war over it.

I seems to me like most of those parishes would jettison the Filioque if it was helpful to keep the school open!

Within some parishes there are several priests and you never know from mass to mass, they are always horsing around with the language.

At my new parish (Byzantine) we chant the Creed without the Filioque and you wouldn't see a raised eyebrow, and we get a lot of visitors.

Peace,
Michael

Ben is an SSPX guy outside the communion of the Catholic Church. That explains everything.

Hey Michael!

Thanks for your input...I was just wondering since I am SSPX (very anti-Orthodox for the most part..) talk of leaving the filioque out is like talk of leaving the name "Jesus Christ" out of the mass..lol..thanks once again:)

God bless and pray for me a sinner!!!!

Dear Thur...

I am not out side of the Church by simply attending an SSPX parish.

LETTER OF THE PONTIFICAL COMMISSION "ECCLESIA DEI":Under Signature of Rev. Msgr. Camille Perl, Secretary May 28, 1996; repeated in Protocol N. 236/98 of March 6, 1998

"It is true that participation in the Mass and sacraments at the chapels of the Society of St. Pius X does not of itself constitute formal adherence to the schism.'"


September 27, 2002

1. In the strict sense you may fulfill your Sunday obligation by attending a Mass celebrated by a priest of the Society of Saint Pius X.

2. ...If your intention is simply to participate in Mass according to the 1962 Missal for the sake of devotion, this would not be a sin.

3. It would seem that a modest contribution to the collection at Mass could be justified."

BRAVO.

I agree that Ben�s continued tirade against the Catholic Church is unacceptable and have spoken to him privately about it.

I also would like to state that SPDundas� post is also uncharitable and I ask him to strive to be more charitable towards newcomers in the future.