|
0 members (),
321
guests, and
22
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums26
Topics35,219
Posts415,295
Members5,881
| |
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 156
Member
|
Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 156 |
Quoting Fr.: What the focus should be on, is this a distraction that will keep some from prayer and that intimacy of prayerful communion with God or not? If it does, then it is sinful, because the rule has robbed the person of that reverence and prayer. It seems to me that perhaps the particular posture is not as important as the reverence and intent behind the action. I feel that perhaps this is what St. Isaac of Nineveh was driving at when he said: "God cannot be dishonored by anything, seeing that honor belongs to Him by nature. But we, as a result of slovenly habits and various outward postures which lack reverence, have aquired an attitude of mind that shows contempt towards Him." "Someone who shows a reverential posture during prayer, by stretching out his hands to heaven as he stands in modesty, or by falling on his face to the ground, will be accounted worthy of much grace from on high as a result of these lowly actions." "God accepts the paltry and insignificant things done with a good will for his sake, along with mighty and perfect actions." ~Isaac (of Hawaii :p )
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 4,225 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 4,225 Likes: 1 |
Take a deep breath...the basis of the argument is that disobedience to the Bishop and "his" representative's instructions is the mortal sin...not the act of kneeling...
If you ask me the Latin Rite has had some Byzantine elements added after V II...
I myself find standing and bowing strange after many many years of kneeling during the Mass...
Too many variations of many grey areas lead to confusion...
Can't wait for the next biggest turmoil nxt month...
Stay tuned...
PAX
james
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,881
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,881 |
The Holy See has reminded Latins that the proper posture during the Eucharistic Prayer is kneeling. Standing, had as I read in recent years crept in somewhere in Canada and Rome reminded 'all' that there had been no applications received for a dispensation from the 'norm'. So unless a copy of the dispensation is available to read, the proper position remains kneeling. Anyway this is a Byzantine forum so what we discussing 'them' for?  So lets talk about nice things like 'us'.  Second cup of coffee on the way.  P
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,133
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,133 |
Hi, That being said, kneeling at the Agnus Dei is liturgically incorrect, and has been so for quite some time. Traditionalists need to acknowledge this and follow the norm, doing otherwise is liturgical abuse. That may or may not be correct. I am not an expert on the Liturgy. I do know that it is ABSURD to think that one will go to Hell for all eternity because they felt the need to kneel before Our Lord. Oh, I think we are miscommunicating here. When I say Traditionalists need to acknowledge that stating is the right posture for the Agnus Dei, I meant it as a general remark. It anyone needs to asume a body posture that is prayerful and respectful (be it kneeling, standing, sitting, etc.) and does that with proper decorum, I think we all need to be understanding and accomodating of these personal needs (because of emotional state, health, etc.). I think the discussion here and at the parish in question is well beyond personal needs. It is about what is correct and what is incorrect and how grave it is to be incorrect in this particular regard. Of course nobody is going to hell because they feel the need to kneel before the Lord. However, if they kneel just because of contempt to the legitimate liturgical norm or just to be obnoxious to their fellow parishioners, then there is more to it than the body posture. And in this business of where are we going to spend eternity, I'd be much more concerned about what fuels the body posture than the body posture itself. Shalom, Memo
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 4,225 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 4,225 Likes: 1 |
The practice is not forbidden...it however is the decision of each Bishop to permit...so it can vary from diocese to diocese etc...
Pavel...be nice...disturbances can happen anywhere in the Church, be it East or West...one can be prideful one minute...and the next be made very humble.
PAX
james
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,437
Administrator Member
|
|
Administrator Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,437 |
Originally posted by Dr. Eric:
Am I being accused of "Latin Bashing?"
I posted Canon XX of The First Ecumenical Council of Nicaea for discussion purposes as I figured someone would bring it up.
Dr. Eric
Baptised, Confirmed, and First Holy Communion in the Roman Catholic diocese of Belleville, IL. Dr Eric, Christ is Risen! David B's comment was not directed to you. The quote was directed in response to a post that was deleted for extreme bad taste and being uncharitable. Apparently you missed the post, Thank God! In the Risen Christ, Father Anthony+
Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,555
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,555 |
Originally posted by Father Anthony: Originally posted by Dr. Eric:
[b] Am I being accused of "Latin Bashing?"
I posted Canon XX of The First Ecumenical Council of Nicaea for discussion purposes as I figured someone would bring it up.
Dr. Eric
Baptised, Confirmed, and First Holy Communion in the Roman Catholic diocese of Belleville, IL.
David B's comment was not directed to you. The quote was directed in response to a post that was deleted for extreme bad taste and being uncharitable. Apparently you missed the post, Thank God!
In the Risen Christ,
Father Anthony+ [/b] I missed it too!! Felix culpa! But I did not miss your longish second post Father and it was quite good, and is, in my estimation, the answer. I frequently attend Orthodoxy liturgies and frankly, the variety or apparent variety of sitting standing bowing large bowing small crossing once twice thrice, etc. is a blessing for it is clear that each individual person there worships personally and intimately. I've never seen so many good children all in one place--milling about and being so very polite about it. Were we talking about those eternally consistant Orthodox? Oh Please have a brighter cooler and less stressful day tomorrow, we pray, good night, amen. Eli
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,532 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,532 Likes: 1 |
djs, Dead serious. You have conveniently put aside the gist of my question to you.
The third of the congregation that is not adopting the posture of the community is not non-compliant because they have become "tired" or are "children". It is not even clear that the Lord is making them feel "compelled at the moment". It appears, although again it is not entirely clear, that thay they are willfully acting out on their own, with no respect for the rest of the community, the priest, or Bishop. They might even be disrupting divine services. This - not kneeling per se - is the occasion of sin, as I, and the priest in question, already suggested. I think that acting up in church misses the mark and seriously so.
Are they acting up, or just tired, or children, or feeling compelled, etc.? That is the critical question - what is in the heart. If you wish to discuss this question, then consider the many alternatives, not just the manifesty absurd ones. From the information I have found the Vatican has responded on the matter and it appears the Bishop and this priest may be acting in a disobedient manner. EWTN - RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS [ ewtn.com] 1. Is it the case that the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, by No. 43 of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, intends to prohibit the faithful from kneeling during any part of the Mass except during the Consecration, that is, to prohibit the faithful from kneeling after the Agnus Dei and following the reception of Holy Communion?
Resp.: Negative.
2. Does the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments intend by Nos. 160-162, 244, or elsewhere in the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, that the people may no longer genuflect or bow as a sign of reverence to the Blessed Sacrament immediately before they receive Holy Communion?
Resp.: Negative. Kneeling is never a formula that can equate to a Mortal Sin. I am dumbfounded that you wish to entertain this topic.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,437
Administrator Member
|
|
Administrator Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,437 |
Eli,
Thanks for your post. I am still working to get caught up on the work that should have been done during the day and glad that someone liked my thoughts. I pray that you too may have a good night as hopefully this weather breaks overnight.
In the Risen Christ,
Father Anthony+
Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,941
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,941 |
Or perhaps it's time for the Bishop, the pastor and two-thirds of the congregation to stop "re-imagining church" and start respecting the sensibilities of those who want to live faithfully the Latin tradition. Who left what or whom in this case?
Again, the onus is on the Bishop to justify the change. The Bishop does not "own" the ritual traditions of his Church. He is its chief celebrandt, the guardian of the faith of the people, and the bridge to the broader communion of churches, however. Gordo, almost everyone here knows what constitutes the ritual tradition of the Latin church better than I. But I hold firm that if the Bishop is incorrect, there are reasonable ways to work on the matter; acting out at the liturgy is gravely sinful IMO. I am skeptical - and have grown even more so after many threads here - of the "here I stand..." crowd. Too many of that crowd are too certain of the righteousness of their position, even, if not especially, when they haven't the vaguest clue. The onus, IMO, is on those who advocate in-your-face challenges to be sure of the facts. Kneeling is never a formula that can equate to a Mortal Sin. I am dumbfounded that you wish to entertain this topic. Ray: Re-read the thread. No one here has said that kneeling per se is the mortal sin. No one. The most succint statement is Jakub's: the basis of the argument is that disobedience to the Bishop and "his" representative's instructions is the mortal sin...not the act of kneeling... Moreover, as Memo said, the question is what "fuels" the disobedience. I think that there are plenty of fuels that would obviously rise to the level of mortal sin. As to topics for entertainment: what, exactly, did you have in mind when you started this thread - complete with your indulging in offering a verdict of excommunication?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264 |
Originally posted by djs:
But I hold firm that if the Bishop is incorrect, there are reasonable ways to work on the matter; acting out at the liturgy is gravely sinful IMO. I am skeptical - and have grwon even moreso after many threads here - of the "here I stand..." crowd. Too many of whom are too certain of the righteousness of their position, even, if not especially, when they haven't the vaguest clue. The onus, IMO, is on those who advocate in-your-face cahllenges. But is that what is going on here? Are people who quietly kneel at the consecration being "in your face" about it? I think that those who advocated for the "pastoral shift" away from the Latin tradition are the guilty parties here. The poor laity have had to endure a great deal of nonsense, some of it self-inflicted. I don't fault them for wanting to maintain something of the sacred in their worship. And look, with all the idiocy being pumped out as "Catholic teaching" is the group in need of correction really the "kneelers"? I just think it is another example of progressive intolerance on the part of the pastor and bishop. And it looks like many of the "kneelers" are young people - part of that "new faithful" generation. It's a holy rebellion and its about d*** time. Gordo
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,941
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,941 |
As I indicated from the outset, we really don't know the situation in sufficient detail. Some here, however, seem content to make claims about who are the "guilty parties", and who should be excommunicated. I think that without a better understanding of the situation such judgments seriously miss the mark.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,437
Administrator Member
|
|
Administrator Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,437 |
Christ is Risen!
I believe the above statement has merit. We seem to be arguing at the moment over a matter that is based on A.) one news story, and B.) the report of a secular newspaper (and we all know how they always get things straight).
Maybe some of our esteemed posters can find some colloboration to this story, hopefuly from a Church connected news source. Then maybe we will have more of an idea of what is actually going on. Has anyone checked into to the diocese's website and news releases to see if there is any mention?
In the Risen Christ,
Father Anthony+
Adminstrator/Moderator
Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 4,225 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 4,225 Likes: 1 |
I usally get teary eyed when I think of Pope John Paul II of blessed memory lying prostrate in his chapel before the Blessed Sacrament...that is truly a example for many... PAX james, a middle aged geezer of sorts... ps - Fr. Anthony, if I find reasonable and honest information I'll post it...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264 |
Originally posted by djs:
As I indicated from the outset, we really don't know the situation in sufficient detail. Some here, however, seem content to make claims about who are the "guilty parties", and who should be excommunicated. I think that without a better understanding of the situation such judgments seriously miss the mark. I certainly would not advocate for "excommunication" over this! And both yours and Father Anthony's caution is well taken. It is hard to imagine what additional facts would alter the situation very dramatically, though. I suppose if they were banging tambourines every time they knelt or yelled at people: "Hey you! Down in front!" that would be another matter. Perhaps a new form of parish street gang has formed... "The Kneelers" - who intimidate through their acts of piety? :p Gang warfare might ensue with other Catholic traditional groups: - The Empty Crypts - Three Dogma Night - Altar Boyz Gone Mild - The Roman Roadsters But of course, they all band together to fight their archnemesis and rival ...the Liturgy Committee!  I'll wait for the additional facts... Gordo
|
|
|
|
|
