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During our interim I ventured onto an Orthodox forum [OC.net] and posted a few comments on their Orthodox and Catholic discussion thread, which promised a conversation "in charity". In no time the Catholic Church was accused of being heretical, and it was suggested that that Church's sacraments were graceless. It quickly became apparent that this site was not about conversation but rather an opportunity for proselytization [though only the most disgruntled Catholic would be attracted by this approach].
Reunion was stated to be likely only if the Catholic Church renounces its "heresies" and returned to Orthodoxy.It was suggested that Catholic sacraments were in fact graceless.
It was most disappointing, as I had hoped for a discussion based on mutual respect.
Now, I would have expected such an attitude in what I call the "ROCOR and beyond" school of Orthodoxy, but this site has as administators students at St Vladmir's Seminary, which had always struck me as ecumenical and rather Catholic-friendly. Yet the posters who made such offensive comments were not reprimanded by the administrators [as would occur here on the forum if such offensive comments were made] but rather were defended by them.
My question is, then, how common are such attitudes among the "canononical" Orthodox? I know the Ecumenical Patriarch does not speak for the Orthodox in the way that the Pope speaks authoritatively for Catholics, but are such attitudes common among mainstream Orthodox? Or are their seminarians proneto the excesses of youth? Has the EP ever hinted that Catholics are heretical or their sacraments lacking grace?
Thanks for any insights...
-Daniel

As to how common this outlook is among Orthodox: well, most of the Holy Mountain would endorse these ideas; Catholics who become Orthodox on the Holy Mountain are re-baptized. The same is true in some other subdivisions of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. It could well also be true in the Patriarchate of Jerusalem. And it is often true in the Church of Greece - unless the prospective new Orthodox is an ethnic Greek (and don't ask why that should make a difference).


Earlier this year in Western Europe there was a startling case of the Romanian Orthodox patriarchal bishop purporting to "re-ordain" a former Catholic priest - indeed, a former Jesuit. Since this "re-ordination" took place in a Catholic church, in the presence of a fair number of Jesuits and representatives of the local Latin Catholic Archbishop, eyebrows were raised to an unusually high level.


One frequently encounters the view that while Catholic sacraments are not valid in themselves, they are sufficiently close to the mark that a prospective convert need not necessarily be re-baptized (or, in the case of a cleric, need not necessarily be re-ordained), but that the Baptism or ordination only becomes effective when the person in question is received into the Orthodox Church.

Incognitus

The mode of reception of Catholics entering Orthodoxy is much discussed on various Orthodox fora. The discussion amazes me: a case here or there is scrutinized by some scholar, and various scholarly writings on the subject are rehashed. But the elephant in the corner is routinely ignored.

In the past century or two, upwards of ten million Catholics became communing members of Orthodox churches. These cases probably make up the majority of cases over the last millenium, and are thus normative, not exceptional. What was the method of reception? Typically, AFAIK, no method whatsoever. Bishops were co-opted or violently replaced by Orthodox Bishops. Parish priests were co-opted or violently replaced by Orthodox priests. The life of parishioners, however, went on just as before - with no mass re-baptisms, chrismations, annointings, renunciations, or signed confessions. People who were Catholic one day were received for communion in their now Orthodox-controlled churches without further ado.

Normalije.

Daniel,

I, too, registered at oc.net in the interregnum, having lurked there off and on for some time, aware that it is run by Dustin/Anastasios and Phil/Mor Ephrem, whom most of us know from here, but most particularly because it was recommended to me by two friends here whose opinion I particularly value.

Unlike your experience, I had nothing but polite and friendly discussion, although I admittedly didn't venture into any potentially hot topics.

Many years,

Neil

I don't know if it's another case of "convert mentality," but most of the OCA people I know were once something else. Even the local priest has been everything from Baptist, to Episcopalian, to Orthodox. I think there sometimes comes with that a desire to prove the "rightness" of one's search for a religious home - or one's chronic indecisiveness in some cases. I suspect some of the grumpy converts, ours and theirs, wouldn't be happy in Heaven. The Latins have their converts who are more Catholic than the Pope. It's no surprise that the Orthodox have their own version of that.

I had ventured onto that forum a while back and came away disappointed as well. I tried to post what I thought was a reasonable, balanced view of a controversial topic (the role of the Pope), and there was really no response that addressed my point. Instead the thread just continued with people giving polemical one-liners defending their position - without any real discussion happening. I saw this happening on many other threads as well. The general gist of many posts is simply, "Rome must repent of their errors and all the evil they have done - then we can be reunited". No acknowledgement at all of the truth in the Catholic Church or the problems in the Orthodox Church.

Interestingly, the same thing has happened when I went on Roman Catholic forums (although there I was looked at as a closet Orthodox). So now I just come to this one and a Protestant one in which people have well-thought-out and respectful discussions. It is not worth my time to waste it on internet shouting matches.

I think that in the Catholic Church, the triumphalistic types are a small minority that is very loud on the internet. They have little opportunity to proclaim their attitude in the "outside world" (because so many fellow Catholics would reject it), so I think they find an outlet in the anonymous world of internet forums. I suspect the same might be true of Orthodox triumphalists (but I have no knowledge of that, per se).

Just a few thoughts....
Some years ago I went to Greece and spent some time in a monastery outside of Athens. I was converting to Orthodoxy from Catholicism and had been attending a Greek Orthodox Church and the priest there thought it would be good that I experience my new faith in an Orthodox country. I happily agreed. It was at the monastery of his Geronda whom I found to be very ecumenical. They were always welcoming guest from all over the world and from different faiths to come and spend time at the monastery. While I was there they had a Protestant preacher with his wife and 2 young children from the US who were considering conversion. I even traveled with the Gerontissa to Europe stopping at a few different Catholic monasteries to visit nuns who were, I was told, spiritual children of Geronda. We even attended an Interfaith Conference for Religious in Germany.
I was supposed to be baptized and I was very excited about that. I witnessed quite a few baptisms while I was there and found it so rich and beautiful.
I was a bit na�ve and knew nothing of the relations between Catholics and Orthodox. I heard a few critical remarks about Catholicism from a priest and nun at the monastery for the first time and was a bit shocked. But on the whole I would say that they were very welcoming and open to people of other faiths.
��Unfortunately as things turned out I was never baptized when I was in Greece and I returned to the US and am still Roman Catholic with a very Eastern heart.
I would just like to add that I lurk on a few other sites and I have found that Catholic converts to Orthodoxy can be quite fierce in their criticisms and almost outright hatred of the Church they once belonged to. I find this disheartening for I would think that God would want us to rejoice in the good things we received from our former Church while allowing Him to heal any wounds we have incurred while there.
Hope this makes a bit of sense. Blessings to all in the joy and peace of �God with us.� Emmanuel.
Chaire

Charles,

They're all over at the Catholic Answers forum :rolleyes:

Many years,

Neil

Chaire,

Amen. I think that should be the case with most converts, virtually regardless of the Church from which they came.

Many years,

Neil

Daniel,

I looked around at OC.net and saw the thread about which you are speaking. I have to agree with you, it definitely deteriorated, particularly given the prayer that initiated it.

Many years,

Neil

Dear Daniel:

After Dustin/Anastasios and Phil/Mor Ephrem "bolted" out of this Forum a few years ago, some of us (including Alex the Great) registered at the new site.

The original site then crashed and OC.net replaced it.

I have not participated in the discussions there for a long time now because of the decidedly "one-track" mind many display.

Our Fr. Deacon Lance and Jakub/James keep them on their toes.

Amado

P.S. Personally, only Phil/Mor Ephrem, one of the Admins, and Brendan, who occasionally posts, have maintained their "balance."

Dear Amado,

Don't you know it's not nice to be bringing up sins of another's past that one has since confessed and received forgiveness for?

Alex("the Great")

I'm a enigma and maverick(for the Lord)!

james, who is a Open Ranger

Dear Friends,

Anastasios and I did not "bolt" from this site: both of us are still around, although I have curtailed my participation here greatly. I know I have some issues with the way things have been going here (if I didn't, I'd probably be a regular poster as before), but I don't take the opportunity at our site to lambast this one. It is rather useless to complain here about the "bad things" going on at our site if the intent is to help bring about some positive change, but I am not so naive as to imagine that this is so. For what it's worth, my own two cents on this thread, esp. with regard to the lengthy preface to the original post and its question.

It is, or should be, widely known that the Catholic view of the Orthodox Churches (as real particular Churches with valid sacraments and priesthood) is not reciprocated in the same way by the Orthodox. Dogmatically, the best the Orthodox can say about the non-Orthodox is that they cannot say whether or not the Spirit operates among them in the way He operates in the Orthodox Church. This website is the first place I ever heard this teaching, and so I feel a little silly having to reiterate this.

It should also be no surprise that, while the Orthodox and Catholic Churches share much, there are also very serious dogmatic differences between us. From the Orthodox POV, where Catholicism parts ways with Orthodoxy, Catholicism is wrong. This is essentially the Catholic view of our Church. While Catholics may not call our beliefs heretical (how could they, when we do not believe anything they didn't once believe?), Orthodox may and do call certain Catholic teachings erroneous innovations at best, and heresy at worst.

This is not meant to be "mean" or "uncharitable" (although the way people use the term can often be these things). It is what we believe. The view espoused here by some/all that "communion with Rome is the crown of Orthodoxy" is what you believe, and I accept that. I think it's wrong, but I accept it as your belief. I don't see how there can be any discussion between our Church and yours if we cannot be clear on what we believe. If we have to suppress our beliefs in the name of "nice", any union achieved (if one is achieved at all) will be along the Florentine model: it won't stick. None of us want that; we want to strive for a lasting union.

That particular subforum is about charitable discussion between sinful members of our Churches, but it should be no surprise that, based on what we believe, we want others, Catholics included, to join the Church. We cannot "proselytise", "convert", etc. We are not a Church, but an internet website. But we do want people to join the Church (and that necessarily involves rejecting those things which are not consonant with what she believes), and no one has ever said or pretended otherwise.

Re: mutual respect, I can only reiterate that it is not a matter of "being nice", but of charitably affirming what each believes, and recognising the differences between us for what they are. There is no "respect" without this foundation.

This is what I thought once upon a time, but it is more widespread than I thought.

The problem with the above is that it presumes that an affirmation of Orthodox belief regarding the non-Orthodox is offensive. I can understand how Catholics might feel bad about it, but it is not offensive. It is what we believe. How, then, could we reprimand people for believing in the Orthodox faith? If they were being rude, maybe, but it is not rude to believe. I do not expect that the Administrator here would discipline those who defended the Catholic faith. Furthermore, some Catholic posters did not exactly reflect well on their Church.

By way of clarification (since the Seminary was invoked), our posts do not necessarily reflect the position of the Seminary. For that, you'll have to ask one of its officials.

Surely you are better than this?

If you acknowledge that the EP does not speak for Orthodoxy the way the Pope does for Roman Catholicism, why ask specifically for his opinion? Yet, even on our site, a speech by the EP was posted which was less than "Catholic-friendly", and if I remember correctly, it went without Catholic comment.

These posters bring up a good point in that "extremism", if you want to call it that, is not solely an Orthodox problem. My own personal experience on RC fora demonstrates this. That is no excuse, but simply an observable fact. "Extremism" does not necessarily reflect the reality of the situation: there are always more "official" sources from which one can get a better understanding of these things. Part of the problem in this particular situation seems to be that "adherence to Church teaching" is being equated with "extremism". If a form of rhetoric was being labelled as "extremist", I'd be more inclined to sympathise (I can't teach people how to dispassionately express their views, I don't have that kind of time as a graduate student), but the original post leads me to conclude that it is not just rhetoric that is the issue here.

I am not one who cannot sympathise with the feelings of some Catholics on our site. As a non-Chalcedonian, my Church's Orthodoxy is called into question by some EO, and with that comes discussion about heresy, gracelessness, etc., as well as more personal comments about my involvement with the site (this happens online, and sometimes in real life). I disagree with them, obviously, but at least I can understand where they are coming from. I suppose that is all I can ask Catholics to do.

I ask for your forgiveness if I have offended you, and pray that God will bless you and have mercy on me as we struggle toward the conclusion of our fast, and the celebration of the Nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Dear Catholicos Mor Ephrem,

It's always great to see you here!

When you say "Orthodox" do you include the Miaphysite/Oriental Orthodox as well?

There are (Byzantine) Orthodox who would strenuously deny the title "Orthodox" to the Miaphysite churches, as you know.

How is the mood on your site with respect to this matter these days?

Kissing your right hand, blah,blah,blah

Alex