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When I say "Orthodox", I usually mean to include the Eastern Orthodox. I consciously try sometimes to be a hardliner like that with EO, both online and in seminary. Keeps them on their toes. The Western Churches seem to be, on the whole, more prone to triumphalism than our own (although we have our own triumphalists, no doubt). I guess there really is nothing new under the sun. As I said in my previous post, I disagree with them, but understand where they're coming from.

I hope all is well with you and yours.

Dear Alex, Thanks for the gift. And for asking one the key question that probes charity.

Dear Catholicos,

All is well and I pray for you and yours at this holy time of the Nativity!

God bless you, Brother in Christ!

Alex

Francis (and others),

I think that Mor Ephrem has spoken for his site and does a good job of summarizing the Orthodox positions. We need to respect this.

For the record, however, there are a few things we need to acknowledge and respect. Orthodoxy (not in communion with Rome) does not have unified, official positions about the validity of Catholic sacraments or even if Catholics and other Christians can be saved. Most Orthodox tend to acknowledge that other Christians can be saved and that Catholic sacraments (in particular) are valid. But the opinion that other Christians cannot be saved and that Catholic sacraments are invalid is a legitimate theological position within Orthodoxy (although it tends to be spoken of as simply something that is unknown). While I disagree with that position I also acknowledge it as a legitimate position within Orthodoxy (even it is a minority position).

When judging charity it is best to judge not the position itself but rather the way the position is articulated.

Admin

Dear Admin,

And by whom . . .

A blessed Nativity!

Alex

I think the Administrator hits on a problem that is common with Orthodoxy. No one voice speaks for Orthodoxy and often there is no official position on given issues. Latins, particularly, who are used to having everything nailed down and defined find this maddening.

Daniel,

Do you regularly talk about people behind their backs? You came to an Orthodox forum, didn't like what Orthodox had to say, so you come back "home" and complain. Hey we have freedom of speech...

Whenever people attack byzcath.org on Phil's and my site, we remove the comments or correct them. I still post here on byzcath.org and read the threads here often, and genuinely enjoy the site.

I'm sorry you don't like what Orthodoxy has to say, so you and others find ways to ignore it: "We have convert mentality", "we don't listen to the Ecumenical Patriarchate", "we are internally divided", etc. Let me address the convert perspectives issue: where do you think I personally get my ideas from? Convert "intro to Orthodoxy" books or people who have been Orthodox all their lives? The latter. For instance, if you want to know about Orthodox views of Roman Catholics sacramentally, a good place to go would be St Nikodemos the Haghiorite. If you want to attack the views I espouse, then attack his understanding of them, because my views come directly from him (among others).

It would be impossible to answer all your charges here given that I am on vacation but would that really be a good thing? I doubt it. You have the impression you have of us, and we have the impression we have of you, Daniel.

Blessed Nativity to all,

Anastasios

Some may be interested in this article: Reception into the Orthodox Church: Contemporary Practice by John H. Erickson in Jan-Ap o2 of The Ecumenical Review. Here is the link:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2065/is_1_54/ai_87425975

Converts can be a mixed blessing. Some are led by the Holy Spirit in a search for truth that leads them to a particular church. Some converts, however, seem to be malcontents who repeatedly church-hop over a period of years. So you may not always know which group some of your church's converts fall into. You hope for the former, but may get the latter. I think most of us have probably encountered both types at some point.

Daniel,

I wish you the best over this Christmas season. I think I have posted here longer than you have at OC.net. If you like I can dig up posts here that were offensive to me and to Orthodoxy. There have been more than a few. No one has a monopoloy on [insert name of confession here]-bashing.

And all Orthodox were called heretics recently on OC.net by a RC. What am I to make of that?

During my time here at byzcath.org forum many hurtful things have been said publically and privately, I have even been acused of lying, only for that to be disproven (yes, with proof) later. I can't recall once that the offender(s) offered an apology. If I take that to reflect the nature of this board then it is a sorry board indeed. However, more than just a few ignorant individuals (yes even administrators/moderators) make up this kind of board.

It is our calling to speak the truth in love to the best of our ability. It is also our calling to educate ourselves and to recognize peoples' sometimes delicate egoes.

Tony

Dear Anastasios,

I am a 'good' Greek Orthodox, and as such, can't receive communion in a Church that is not Orthodox, unless I get the go ahead from an authority figure.

But I am curious about what you said in the above. Can you give me a quote on the Roman Catholic sacraments by Saint Nikodemos the Haghiorite.

I'm curious to know if our dear Saint's beliefs towards the RC sacraments are a cultural reflection of him and his understanding of things, or if our Saint's views were taken out of context. If so, then St. Nikodemos' views on the RC sacraments, would be the cultural reflection and understanding of things, by the Orthodox bishop, priest, etc. that interpreted his writings.

Zenovia

Dear Daniel,

The EP does not feel like that. However, that does not mean that he ignores the fact that much needs to be reconciled. Our theologians are working on these matters as we speak.

We came very close to intercommunion, so I don't think that he believes the Latin sacraments to be graceless.

He would not have signed the Balamand Agreement declaring the Latin and Orthodox churches 'sister churches' if he felt otherwise.

However, as I understand it, the OCA rejects the Balamand Agreement. St. Vladimir's Seminary is under the jurisdiction of the OCA and not the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

It is true that many Orthodox feel that all must be converted to Orthodoxy and that it is the only way to salvation.

It is also true that many do not feel that way.

Regards,
and a blessed Christmas to you and yours,
In Christ, Lord, Master and Saviour of all who profess His Name,
Alice

Dear Friends,

Well, if it's of any help here, I myself, as an Eastern Catholic, used to think that RC's were heretical . . .

(Do you see how they cross themselves? )

Alex

I have been away from the computer for a while now; I came back this morning and read how the thread developed.
Anastasios- I did not talk about you behind your back; everything I said here I said on your forum. It was not my purpose to trash oc.net. I merely had some serious questions about the opinions I encountered there. I thank all who responded and attempted to answer my questions.

I certainly grant that one may encounter rude posters here; however if anyone attacks the Orthodox Churches as "heretical" he would be reprimanded. And I certainly am aware that there are Catholics who lack respect for Orthodoxy. All I was wondering about was the attitudes I found on oc.net.
As for "mutual respect", the Catholic Church considers the Orthodox Churches to be true Churches, possessing valid life-giving sacraments, an episcopacy that has Apostolic origins, and a rich spiritual and mystical heritage. If in return the Orthodox consider us to be heretics, with graceless sacraments, and our saints to be demoniacs [which I have also seen on Orthodox sites], I don't know how you can speak of mutual respect.
And Tony, I myself have been accused here of dishonesty. Note that on oc.net I also was accused of dishonesty when I said I had only recently found their website through my conversation with Jennifer.
But the point of this thread is not to find fault with your forum [indeed, I have posted perhaps too many threads criticizing this site]. It was to seek clarification about Orthodox attitudes. I was surprised to see such negativity toward Catholicism in what I had assumed to be a more moderate Orthodox site.
And I am saddened to learn that this may be common, even among the canonical Orthodox. Perhaps my acquaintance with Alice here, who is always generous toward Catholicism, [and sweet, too] had led me to expect such generosity to be the norm.

PS- Tony, I believe the "RC" who called the Orthodox heretical was himself a schismatic SSPXer. Just to clarify....