www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Byzantine Catholic entering formation in Latin religious order

As I have said in the Prayer forum, I have been accepted into formation in the Carmelites.

I just had this question pop into my mind.

Some of our Holy Days do not match up with the Latin Church's and then there is the fact that the Latin Church moves some of their Holy Days to Sunday where we do not do that.

So what happens with me? Am I bound to the Obligation for our Holy Days or do I now follow the Latin Church calendar?

David,

My suggestion is that you consult your spiritual father to guide you in this situation. An internet forum is not the place to seek the answer to this question.

Best wishes for your time of formation.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Dear Fr Anthony,
I would but.... My spiritual father is the abbot at the local Cistercian monastery.

I am one very ecumenical Byzantine Catholic.

But thanks, I will take it up with the director of the pre-novitate when I get there.

Dear David,

That is probably the best thing to do.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

I will even share the answer when I get it.

And let me leave with this for those Father Ted fans out there/

As Fr Jack would say, "That's an ecumenical manner father."

I think before anyone makes any further comments that would be perceived as "negative", I would like to remind all that as a monastic speaking this is a very stressful time spiritually for one that is going to enter a religious life. I would like to encourage all that any comments offered be of a positive and spiritually constructive nature.

I am sure that I speak for all, our prayers are for David as he prepares to enter into a life of dedication to God.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Moderator

It sounds like a rather confusing situation. It might be best to simply request a transfer of ritual Church, and become a member of the Latin Church sui juris.

I know from my own experience that during the time I was Latin Catholic, but was regularly attending a Byzantine Church, I found it difficult, because there are different liturgical calendars and different regulations for fasting and abstinence, etc. So, it would probably be easier to simply change sui juris Churches and conform to the Church that the religious order belongs to.

No I won't be doing that.

But a thought just hit me. With the celebration of Daily Eucharist, there should be no problems at all.

I would imagine that you follow what is being celebrated in the house you are in. You can't be saying 2 lots of office, or keeping other feast different to the others in your heart. I would encourage your to keep it simple and go with the flow of the house you are in.

Concentrate on the postulancy or novicate stage you are in, there will be plenty to keep you busy with that alone. God bless!

David,

Congratulations! May God and the Theotokos bless you on your pilgrimage as a monastic. May you be transformed into fire in the spirit of St. Elias!

You might also consider talking to Father Elias who is on this forum from time to time. I believe that he is a Byzantine Catholic Carmelite friar.

God bless!

Gordo

PS: "Where you do not find love, place love and there you will find love."

- St. John of the Cross

PPS: There was a document posted here some time back on the Rule of Carmel and Eastern Christian spirituality. I believe it was part of the Internet Carmelite Community discussions that Alex and a few others took part in. I may have reposted it there.

David,
You seem to have let God guide you so far. He will continue to and all things will work themselves out for you. You a brave man and I pray for your journey.

Dear DavidB:

Again, our warmest congratulations!

If I recall it right, one of the initial questions you had during your discernment period way back in 2000 was whether a Byzantine Catholic like yourself would be "required" or "forced" to change canonical enrollment if you chose to join a Latin religious community like the Carmelites.

It was our venerable monk Fr. Elias, a Byzantine Carmelite, who advised you that it was not required nor necessary as this requirement was dispensed with post-Vatican II.

Please confirm that the Carmelites in Houston have recognized/allowed that you remain a Byzantine Catholic and will be associated with other Byzantine Carmelites after your formation?

Thanks,

Amado

The Carmelite discussions are in Faith & Worship, just do a search in that section...using Carmelite of course...

I do not have time to search them at the moment...

james

Dear David,

Before I go on my sabbatical to rid myself of modernist tendencies , just a note to say I'll certainly be supporting you spiritually, as brothers in Carmel!

I think you can enrich the lives of all your Latin brothers of Carmel by sharing the Byzantine spirituality with them and also by showing them how so much of Carmelite spirituality has Eastern roots.

Your scapular can be (and actually is) a symbol of the Holy Protection of the Theotokos.

The devotion of the East to St Elias really does outstrip that of the West etc.

And don't forget the beautiful Akathist to Our Lady of Mt Carmel! (byzcath.org/sites/alex/web/)

In Carmel, both East and West,

Alex

The carmelites here in Australia had a young man join them and he found it too difficult and transfered in the end to their Congo province. He was from an Egyptian Melkite family and the main problem was from his latin confreres. They got caught up in whether the patriach had any juristicion over him. It was pointed out that as a religious of order with pontifical status the Patriarch and all bishops had no right to tell the Carmelites what to do with him. So preoccupied were they with this he was ordained by a Latin Bishop. By being a Carmelite he was bi-ritual it seems. The Dominicans had the same problem with a Greek from Egypt who eventually transfered out to found a Byzantine Monastery in the USA. The Carmelite is a very happy Byzantine Carmelite back in his home continent of Africa. I suppose it depends on just how open the various provinces of the order are to the differences in the Church.