www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Byzantine Catholic entering formation in Latin religious order

We have a priest in my former parish who was raised Byzantine Catholic, but is an Augustinian. In fact, he was ordained in our Church. I don't know how he does it. It must be rough.

I don't see how it would be rough...

After all, the Church is the Church. That is what we must remember.

Dear David,

Actually, the Church is the Latin Church, the Byzantine Church, the Armenian Church etc.

Usually, when Catholics say "the Church" they mean the Latin Church as the ultimate arbiter over the East.

As I said, you should remind your Latin Carmelite brothers that the reason they have the tradition regarding the Brown Scapular had to do with the desire of RC religious orders in England to oust the newly-arrived Carmelites from the Holy Land as an "Eastern monastic order" that had no place in the West.

That is when St Simon Stock prayed for help to the Theotokos and experienced the vision of Her Protective Mantle that became associated with the visible symbol of the scapular.

Clearly, the RC religious orders of England of that day didn't see the "Church as the Church." They felt the Eastern Church had its place - outside the Western jurisdictions . . .

Alex

No, those are particular churches, the Church is the Church. I will stand by that statement.

I am a Catholic and when I say the Church I in no way mean the Latin Church.

I am not in England nor am I living in that day.

I grow weary of this "us against them" mentality many Eastern Christians (both Orthodox and Catholic) seem to have. Until this fades away there will never be one Church again.

David,

I fear you are going to experience a rude awakening, especially out here in the West, I get many many many eye brow raises when I mention the East around here...its that big brother - little sister stuff, however, go the way the Spirit leads you...hopefully with peace of mind and spirit.

james

Thank your for the kind words James but I must tell you, the hardest time I have gotten so far is from eastern catholics. No issues from the Latin side of things so far.

David what was the answer to your original question? By now your superiors should have been able to provide the answer. I am curious as to what they expect you to do. After all at the end of the day it is they who will set these things in place for you. God's blessing on this part of your life as you move on it the faith.

oops

Dear David,

Ah, I see you are as feisty as ever!

O.K., the Church is the Church, I agree. So you don't accept that we belong to "The Church" through our membership in our Particular Church - we disagree.

But don't you wish to contribute something to the Carmelite experience and to the cause of Christian unity precisely by showing your Latin Carmelite Brothers something of the riches of the Christian East as it has specifically influenced the "Charism of Carmel?"

No, you are not at Aylesford in England, but there is an Aylesford in the U.S. which is the Carmelite headquarters.

Your Latin brothers have no wish to divest themselves of their historical roots - why do you?

In any event, I wish you well and if this post will inspire more feistiness in you and you feel it impacts negatively on you, then please just ignore it!

Cheers, Big Guy!

Alex

It is as I thought. We do daily Eucharist. It is incorporated with lauds or vespers depending on the day. So with daily Eucharist I will not miss any day. Now the liturgical calendar is different but that is expected.

I have also been encouraged to visit the local Byzantine Church, St John Chrysostom in Houston. We are free on Sundays to go to a parish for Liturgy.

After I establish a routine and gain some confidence in my knowledge of the Houston area I will be heading over there to check it out.

I will take that as a complement from you Alex. :p

I do not see where you get that second part. Of course we belong to the Church though our membership in our Paticular Church but I do not see how joining a Latin order has anything to do with that. I do not have to change my membership to do so.

Yes I do hope that someday I may do this.

Headquaters for the Chicago province, the New York province has their own headquarters/

Am I divesting myself of my historal roots? After all, my mother's side of the family is Latin. My mother has never been comfortable with the Byzantine side of things, she is so happy and I am not ashamed to say that I am very proud to make her so happy.

But besides that, maybe it is the "particular" Church that chose to divest itself of me. I did look into the "religious orders" and even looked to one of the eparchies but things either were not what I was looking for or there seemed to be a lack of interest on their side.

The way things worked out in this I can see the Hand of God at work, that is good enough for me.

Don't worry Alex, I am counting on you to keep me on my toes and to keep at least a part of myself in the East.

No need to worry, the Church is one, and always has been. This is one of her four Marks and distinguishing characteristics.

Logos Teen

David sounds like you have solved your own problem. You will find your own way. Just keep life simple and go with the Carmelite flow.

Often, very often on this Forum we read about Latins leaning Eastward - and many have taken the jump into another particular Church from the Latin. Some on to Orthodoxy.

The Spirit leads where it wills. Certainly one can be called to a type of Latin spirituality and religious life from an Eastern background. It is far better you go that way than stay where you may not really feel spiritually at home, or perhaps be part of something unnecessarily syncretistic or latinizing, as several of the paramonastic communities that have arisen over the years.

The Holy Fathers since Leo XIII have spoken against latinizations within the Eastern Churches, which has been discussed innumerable times on this Forum. If one is more inclined to Latin forms of worship and spirituality, by all means go that way - the Church needs faithful workers in the vineyard faithful to Tradition, be that Eastern or Western.

David, may the Holy Spirit guide your discernment and religious life.
DD

Dear David,

I agree that joining the Latin Carmelites does not change your Particular Church.

My mother, too, was baptized a Roman Catholic and was raised in that Church.

May the Mother of God of Carmel cover you with her Mantle of Protection, the Brown Scapular, and keep you under her care always . . . Big Guy!

Your friend and servant,

Alex