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Bless me a sinner, Father Thomas!

You are positively SIZZLING today!

You must have fully recovered from the effects of the long services of Holy Week and Pascha!!

A further question, Father, I notice you sign your name as "Priest Thomas."

What is the convention in Orthodoxy with respect to this?

When is "Father" used etc.?

Layman Alex

Well, layman Alex,

"Father" is more of a term of endearment and respect, whereas "Priest" is my position, my title, if you will.

The case is better made when giving the example of a bishop, but you can use any office you like.

A bishop would never sign his name "Master John," but rather "Bishop John" or "Archbishop John." However, in Orthodoxy, we do not call him "Bishop" or "Archbshop," but rather "Master" or "Vladika." Same with a deacon or a priest.

Also, a priest usually (although it's erroneously done a lot) should not adress himself as "Father" in the presence of another priest, especially an elder brother. And certainly not a bishop - this is a no no. I am not a bishop's Father; he is my Father in Christ. However, many bishops do call priests "Father," however, this is done as deference to the priesthood. When I call the bishop on the phone, I say, "Bless, Master! This is Priest Thomas Soroka."

Since there are priests online here, it is better for me to use the title "Priest Thomas" rather than "Father Thomas" when referring to myself. But also, it is really "who I am." I am a priest.

Priest Thomas

Dear Father Thomas,

Please allow me to add one other scholarly work to those listed regarding the life of St. Alexis Toth. It is the master's dissertation of Bartholomew Wojcik, submitted in 1997 at St. Vladimir's Seminary.

I haven't read it, but the author is a fine man and serves as a priest in Illinois.

Christ is Risen,
Andrew

Dear Alex,

Thanks for your question. I have put alot of time, prayer, research and thought into this.

From from the time I was a small child, and my friend 'down the block' gave me a small statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary, I had this gut feeling that we must have alot in common. The innocence of a child is, ofcourse, that what we had in common was our Lord, and our Lady Theotokos, and that we both loved them very much. My aunt married and converted to the Anglican Church, and my Greek Orthodox and Greek born grandparents had no problem with it, with going to their church when special occasion called for it, etc. So, neither my parents or grandparents beat me into the submission of Greek Orthodoxy over other Christianity..(remember the 'Big Fat Greek Wedding'...I know alot of men who would say what the father said to his son in law about becoming Greek Orthodox!)So, I have been as free as a bird to come to my own conclusions through prayer and an intense devotion to Christ throughout my life. I married a Greek Orthodox man, so I never had to worry too much about it.

I understand how the papacy evolved into becoming jurisdictionally supreme in the West. I don't think that the West, with its great organizational qualities, could do without his central authority. For the East, ofcourse, in the first millenium, he, who I like to call, 'the Patriarch of Rome', had primacy of honor, and although Orthodox often conveniently leave this out, my research shows that often he was consulted as a 'final word' if you will, at Ecumenical councils. So now what we have, after a thousand years is an estrangement. My conclusion is, that spiritually speaking, in the spirit of the first church, and the one Body of Christ which all Christians of good will should strive for, the Orthodox East is INCOMPLETE without the Bishop or Patriarch of Rome, and the West, is INCOMPLETE without the Eastern Orthodox Patriarchs. In true spirit we need each other SPIRTITUALLY. I don't want to be simplistic and say that we don't have differences, but I believe that they can be reconciled...for instance, the Ecumenical Patriarch of the late 1800's (name eludes me) wrote to the Pope and said that he had no problem with the immaculate conception of Mary, but with the fact that the Pope dogmatized it..unilaterally. I am also not unrealistic like many of my brethren who say that the Pope should give up everything that evolved in Roman Catholicism for the last 1000 years and become Orthodox!

I think that this Pope is a saint, and that his intentions and thoughts are on the right track, and that his ideas are similar for 'spiritual union'. Jurisdictional union will never be, and shouldn't be. I believe that Pope John Paul II knows this. I believe that our Ecumenical Patriarch is making good progress too. The Greek Orthodox have been obviously quite suspicious because of the many times the past mentality of 'superiority of the Latins' have encroached upon them in history. Some of them may also think, in their ignorance, that unity would equal assimilation. With this Pope, and his urgings for all of you Byzantine Catholics to go back to all the Eastern traditions, we know that is not true, ofcourse. Yet, even I might wonder, if future Popes will feel this way. (I would like your ideas on this),

Anyway, these ideas of needing each other and the necessity of a spiritual communion between us, have been considered radical by many of my brethren, and sometimes I have suffered insult because of them. There are many different reasons for it; fear, misinformation, theological ignorance, etc. but the worst problem anyone who wishes for union faces is from the more fundamentalist Greek Orthodox. Forget not accepting my ideas, they cannot even accept my Orthodoxy (which is otherwise VERY traditional). So some times I just keep my mouth shut and sometimes I don't. I figure Christ's reward is greater than their acceptance, and He does not want to see His Body, His Church seperated.

What I try to get across to the fundamentalists (the worst are some Protestant converts because they have baggage against the Papacy), is that all this talk of spiritual union could really be so simple if they would just OPEN their hearts and allow their hearts to love Christ rather than just themselves and their own way. I feel such sorrow when I see the 'law' being followed rather than the 'spirit' of Orthodox Christianity, because the factor they sometimes forget in the equation is that Orthodoxy, besides being a beautiful, traditional, original and ancient faith, IS ALSO CHRISTIANITY, and as followers of Christ they need to love, forgive and reconcile.

I have rambled a great deal...forgive me.

In the Risen Christ,
Alice

ear Alex,

Boy,I really did ramble didn't I? Sorry! (and got off topic!!)...

Papal Authority...No, the Greek Orthodox would not accept that. That was not the way of the first Church. I believe that John Paul II wants things to be in the spirit of the first Church, and would not expect, (from what I have been reading) the Eastern Orthodox churches to accept his authority. It would be more conciliar.

Alice

Dear Alice,

Keep on ramblin! Any rambling that contains this:

"My conclusion is, that spiritually speaking, in the spirit of the first church, and the one Body of Christ which all Christians of good will should strive for, the Orthodox East is INCOMPLETE without the Bishop or Patriarch of Rome, and the West, is INCOMPLETE without the Eastern Orthodox Patriarchs. In true spirit we need each other SPIRTITUALLY. "

makes eminent good sense to me!

Steve

Dear Alex,

I think that you overestimate my abilities. Certainly they have not attracted notice by the authorities in the Vatican. (For which I am eternally grateful! :rolleyes: )

I am indeed overwhelmed by your constant kindness and the depth of your incisive insight!

That must be what you meant by my being overwhelming. I participate and I'm overwhelmed by the knowledge and wisdom to be found here!

In the face of that, all I can do is refer to and defer to the words of the knowledgeable such as yourself!

Actually, peace is one option when just having a "for argument's sake." I'm not sure that I made peace.

Perhaps I unintentionally stirred other emotions?

Maybe I missed my calling, Legislative speaker, eh?

Thanks as usual,

Steve

Inawe<<Orthodox East is INCOMPLETE without the Bishop or Patriarch of Rome,>>

Funny, I don't feel incomplete. :-)

OrthodoxEast

Christ is Risen!

The post of Alice above was very profound but I throw out some other considerations just thinking out loud here. The Roman Church has essentially now a sort of split personality with some parts moving back towards the Tridentine tradition, such as the Fraternity of St. Peter et. al., and another part moving towards greater and greater liturgical experimentation and innovation. This is just an observation from a Greek Catholic sort of looking at that situation from a distance.

Also we don't seem to have in Orthodoxy products like Hans Kung or Charles Curran who are willing, publicly as Catholic priests, to say they doubt the divinity of Christ.

In general with Orthodoxy the liturgy is not a question and is an element of commonality. The teachings of the first seven councils are an undeniable and firm basis of Orthodoxy.

Is 'lex orandi, lex crendendi' of St. Prosper of Aquitane true? I certainly believe it is true. If that is the case, then it seems to appear that a theological plurality may be present stemming from the liturgical plurality in the Roman church. I have been in Catholic Masses where I was uncomfortable and unsure I was in a Catholic Church. I have generally not had that same sort of experience with the Orthodox, just occasional discomfort becuase of the disdain of some priests for Greek Catholics. But most Orthodox welcome us when we attend.

But on the other hand primacy is needed (as Orthodox theologians such as Schmemann, Afanasiev and Meyendorff have stated) and the jurisdictional issues plaguing Orthodoxy seem to manifest this need.

Alex, thank you for starting this thread. I am also having great difficulty dealing with some of these very questions and issues at the present and this forum presents an excellent opportunity to voice those issues.

This thread has definitely been a most productive one.

I think that there will naturally be a tension between conciliarity and primacy. If we look at any Eastern Orthodox Synod, we see this. The President of the Synod acts conciliarly with his brethren, yet he may veto elections of new bishops. He is usually the most senior and most respected voice, yet everyone has an equal voice and one vote. He is expected to admonish wayward brethren, yet he himself may be admonished and even removed!

There are clearly theological comparisons to this tension between primacy and conciliarity in our understanding (what little we may assert) of the Most Holy Trinity.

Christ is Risen!
Andrew

But please don't take the comparison to any extreme: I don't mean to say that the Son and Holy Spirit may "remove" the Father!

Christ is Risen!
Andrew

Posted by OrthodoxEast,

"Inawe<<Orthodox East is INCOMPLETE without the Bishop or Patriarch of Rome,>>

Funny, I don't feel incomplete. :-)

OrthodoxEast "


Dear OrthodoxEast,

Wish I had said them!

Actually, the words that you attributed to me were written by Alice who is Orthodox. Speaking as a Latin Catholic I can only say that since there is a lack of communion of all of the Patriarchs with each other, I feel the sense of incompleteness of which she speaks.

It seems that communion is at least a part of the what Jesus prayed for in His prayer for unity among His followers.

I think that we all pray for that.

In the meantime, I'm certainly glad that you don't feel incomplete! You seem perfectly whole to me!

Steve

Good question Orthodox Catholic,

This reminds me of the fact that I've been working on a personal list of reasons why I am Eastern Catholic rather than Eastern Orthodox (or Oriental Orthodox in my case). This list used to be a long one, easy to compile but it has slowly become a very brief list, difficult to compile. In other words, its becoming the incredible shrinking list.

I'm getting to the point, where I'm doubting whether I'm being theologically honest with myself (and God) by maintaing communion with Old Rome. I'm beginning to wonder whether the faith I hold is acceptable to my Catholic hierarchy and compatible with Catholicism (even EC). Perhaps I should have a meeting with my pastor to discuss this? Sometimes it seems like all I am doing is kicking against the goad.

Well anyways, these are thoughts that come to mind when I read your provacative question.

Ghazar DerGhazarian

This thread is personally very interesting, since this is exactly what I did. There are a number of personal pastoral effects that resulted, but I have absolutely no regrets. First, the family reaction, my Mother's Family is Italian RC and my Father's mixed Orthodox, BC and RC (as they were founders of of the Johnstown jurisdiction). My Mom's Family had a hard accepting that I chose to "not be under the Pope", and the Catholics remaining in my Dad's (significant percentage both RC and BC) as well. The funniest thing is when I told Bubba that I was now Pravoslavnie Christiani (like her), she said something like "I don't think so". (lol) May Her memory be eternal!

In Boston, Our Lady of Kazan and Father Alexis Floridi I think very probably understood my convictions. (May His memory be eternal). The same with my dear Campus Minister at Northeastern, although I think that she had more regrets and I will always appreciate her TLC. Finally a leading worldwide Greek Catholic (whom shall remain anonymous) theologian who lived there and whom I used to visit said to me, "I'm too old to become Orthodox. But if was Orthodox, I wouldn't become Catholic. Catholic Theology needs defending. Orthodox does not." I will never forget the personal support that I got from this holy Father of the Greek Catholic Church (and in fact, of any Christian persuasion). It was much easier to stay blended into the hugh Catholic Church and have try my best to function daily within that enormous unbrella. But I'm couldn't that, I follow my convictions when they are that strong. So, there are very personal issues that you will encounter, not matter what you decide to do (or not to do). I'm sure that your numerous friends on the this Forum (and elsewhere in your personal life) would join me in praying that whatever path you choose, it will be one that will give you peace in your heart. Psalm 22 reads. "May your heart live forever."

Christ Is Risen!

Three Cents