www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West if the roman church was to unite with orthodoxy...

my qestion is this...if the roman church was to unite with orthodoxy what would become of all orthodox saints such as st mark of ephesus, st photius, st peter the aluet, and so forth? thier sainthood was, in a large degree, found in thier repuidation of heresy in the west.
so...whats the opinion?

Silouan7,

I don't believe I am alone in saying that I don't believe in ghettos in heaven. The lovely thing about the Communion of Saints is that one has recourse to *all* of them, but is not *required* to maintain a relationship with any of them. Pick your affinity group. When and if union is restored, I doubt that the good Lord will be handing out heavenly eviction notices. One hopes there will be rejoicing in heven, no matter what the earthly jurisdiction of the individual saints might have been.

BTW, you might want to read up on previous threads regarding Ss. Josaphat & Alexis Toth.

Peace,


Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

"my qestion is this...if the roman church was to unite with orthodoxy what would become of all orthodox saints such as st mark of ephesus, st photius, st peter the aluet, and so forth? thier sainthood was, in a large degree, found in thier repuidation of heresy in the west."

They would be venerated as saints -- that's the simple answer.

Sharon's advice in cross-referencing the prior discussion is a good one -- we've been over this "what do we do about the other's saints" question a few times already.

Brendan

i guess you got a point there- joan of ark was killed by the same church which canonized her.
and besides, if rome does unite with orthodoxy then they will be agreeing with all those saints like st mark of ephesus, st photius and the like.

Dear In Christ,

St.Photios is also a Catholic saint. He is in the Typikon for this year on the Ruthenian Calendar.

anastasios

ruthenian? goodness. i also saw a icon of st seraphim in the russian catholic seminary in rome. sometimes i just wonder.

Why wonder? Saints are saints. We wouldn't be so presumptous to NOT honor a saintly man or woman just because they came down on the wrong side of the line*

At Holy Resurrection Byzantine Catholic Monastary, they have the icons of saints in alphabetical order on the wall. Guess what that means? St. Josaphat is next to St. John Maximovitch!

anastasios

*Of course we wouldn't venerate Arius et al because he was the CAUSER of the heresy. But one of Arius's spiritual descendents, as Alex pointed out, was martyred and is on the Orthodox Calendar: St. Nicetas the Goth.

that sounds crazy to me! sounds like a compromise in truth. i know that i would not venerate a catholic saint now.

I seem to recall an episode in the Gospels when the disciples came to Jesus saying, "Lord, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we told him to stop, because he isn't one of US," and Jesus told them to leave the man alone, because "He who is not against us is with us."

I guess that crazy, liberal Jesus guy just didn't understand what's important.


Cheers,

Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

i guess the councils did not know what Jesus was talking about either given thier anathamas on arius and all the other heretics. were they not doing things "in Jesus name."
do you want me to venerate martin luther too? i mean- he did give a lot of people courage in a very trying time. i guess he was a good man.
i am sure there are others in Christ name who mean well and will probably inherit the kingdom of God, but...they are not anywhere close to being saints. a saint is someone who we can say- follow thier example, they are in heaven now. we cannot say that of anyone outside the church.

Dear Silouan7,

I was born and raised in the Orthodox Faith and consider myself well read with a good grasp of Orthodox theology. To be honest and blunt, your posts do not reflect an Orthodox mindset. They seem to reflect the black and white understanding of a Protestant Fundamentalist more than a lifelong Orthodox. Are you a recent convert? Who in Orthodoxy taught you to barge into someone else's house and attack them falsely, without understanding? It is clear that you do not have a grasp on more than the simplest Orthodox apologetics and know nothing about our Byzantine Catholic hosts and the closeness that exists between us. I would recommend that you read and learn what the facts are before you start accusing people falsely.

Since this thread discusses saints, I will point out that all the Church - Orthodox or Catholic - states when she canonizes a saint is that the person is holy, is definitely in heaven and led a life worthy of imitation. The Church does not state that saints are sinless or that their actions in a different situation would be equally worthy of imitation. When the Orthodox and Catholic Churches restore full communion between us we will naturally acknowledge one another's saints.

Pete

What, not even Francis of Assisi, Peter Claver, or John of the Cross? Do you think these saints, and the other post-1054 Western saints, are all in hell? Amazing...

Pax Christi,
John

since we are talking about saints...why dont you ask st herman of alaska how black and white the issue is pete. and i quote, "...but those who have departed from the true Orthodox church are not on the right path." (little russian phiolkalia vol. III p. 110).
i thought i was in the east and west room?? are orthodox not to be here? or is it that people who do not share a "feel good" opinion drown in eccumenism are not welcome? i dont mean to be rude. in fact i should probably leave- i certainly dont seem to be helping anything. pray for me a sinner.

Who is "pete"? I'm afraid I don't understand the reference. Is this the fellow that was unfortunately brutally martyred by some Roman Catholics in Alaska?

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and i quote, "...but those who have departed from the true Orthodox church are not on the right path." (little russian phiolkalia vol. III p. 110).

Ah, an Eastern version of Unam Sanctum. Interesting. Nevertheless, it is not so "black and white", unless you are thereby condemning millions of Catholic to hell like the western saints I mentioned. Not even most hardline RCs would take that tack with regards to post-1054 Eastern saints.

For all the Dr. Carroll critics, this would include him. As staunchly pro-RC as he is, he also highly praises explicitly some Eastern saints.

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i thought i was in the east and west room?? are orthodox not to be here? or is it that people who do not share a "feel good" opinion drown in eccumenism are not welcome? i dont mean to be rude. in fact i should probably leave- i certainly dont seem to be helping anything. pray for me a sinner.

You are certainly welcome to stay if you like. However, you seem to have a mistaken impression of many of the people here. Read some of the posts here and you'll find a mostly cordial but very opinionated bunch hardly the liberal "warm fuzzies over truth" crowd. Most keep their tradition seriously as best they can.

Pax Christi,
John

Dear Brother John, I think your post is right on target. There are those who consider the canon laws and the excommunications and the anathemas and stuff to be the prime analogue of ecclesiastical justification and the 'get out of jail/hell' card.

Most cradle Eastern folks I know are much more Christlike in their attitudes. We try to love our neighbors as we would love ourselves. Oh, Lord! We're going to have to pay for this!! Loving people?!?! What will the Church come to??!?!?