www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Purgatory again

Dear Friends,

I came across the canons of the local Orthodox Council of Constantinople held in 1772 that was specifically convened to condemn Purgatory.

It affirmed that there are only two places that souls may go to after death, heaven or hades.

There are "different abodes" in each of these, however.

The souls with unrepentant, unforgiveable sins remain in hades.

But the souls with forgiveable sins can be released from hades through the "unspeakable Mercy of God." Mention is made of prayer for the dead as a result - but Purgatory as a third place is condemned as is the idea of purification by fire.

So, it is the nature of the sins themselves that dictate how long a soul will stay in hades - either eternally or temporarily. The Church must pray earnestly for the souls, of course.

Interestingly enough, the local Orthodox Council held in Iassi in Romania in the 1690's removed the reference to Purgatory in St Peter Mohyla's Orthodox Catholic Catechism and also his reference to the Eucharistic change at the "Words of Institution."

Just thought y'all would like to know . . .

Alex

This is so interesting, Alex.

In the CC, there issue of state/place is open as is the literal or metaphorical quality of "fire". Did the document describe why this council found it necessary make dogmatic pronouncements on such details?

I've always kind'a liked the 'Purgatory' concept personally...having grown up with it, I suppose helps. Also, whenever I get in the wrong lane going through a toll booth, I always seem to end up in an 'Easypass' lane withOUT having the easypass! The toll houses always reminds me of that...darn---wouldn't THAT be scary?! Would be just my misfortune too! At least in purgatory, you KNOW you're gonna get out eventually and you know you're going to be with the Lord in Paradise.

May the Lord save us all!

In His Holy Name,
+Fr. Gregory

I ran across this article on a Russian Orthodox site about the sale of indulgences in the Greek Orthodox Church. Had never heard of this before--have any of you?
http://www.pravoslavie.ru/enarticles/041125153738

Yeah, I've heard about that. Read the book "Eustratios Argenti" by Timothy (Kallistos) Ware; he gets into all of that stuff (it's out of print but you can get it by interlibrary loan).

Usually the Orthodox used a Latin term but didn't accept the underlying theology. For instance they would say indulgence but what they really meant was a bishop's right to issue a lessening of a penance.

This reference may be helpful to some. I found Metropolitan of Nafpaktos Hierotheos's book, Life after Death most enlightening on the topic especially chapter 5 on the "taxing of souls". There the 'toll booths' mentioned by Fr. Gregory are explained. This book is used as a text in some Eastern seminaries and covers such topics in Eschatology as: the separation of the soul from the body; the purifying fire, the second coming, the restoration of all things, and Diachronic eschatology, etc.

It is translated by Esther Williams and published by Birth of the Theotokos Monastery in Greece. I sent for it from St. Nectarios Press in Seattle, WA.

St. Nectarios Press [orthodoxpress.org]

Porter.

Was this book written by a Greek Orthodox hierarch, then? Or Catholic? If Orthodox,was he defend the purifying fire as Purgatory?

Yes, he is a Metropolitan and is Greek Orthodox. He does not defend the purifying fire as purgatory. An entire chapter is devoted to this about which I will not elaborate. Just intended to list it as a source. Publication date is 1995. I assume he is still living.

While doing some research on another topic I ran across what one scholar pointed out about the Jewish supposition that one's term in Sheol, the section reserved for those who had not repented before death, was only temporary-- 100 years.

There is the promise of Scripture, oft-repeated more than 1/2 dozen times all through the Bible, even 2 Esdras, that the Lord visits iniquity upon the fathers and children to the third and fourth generation, but that mercy is upon thousands (of generations).

Though the promise was uttered long before the Hebrews ever dreamed of an afterlife (much less of reward or punishment in different places, such as 'Abraham's bosom' and 'hades' in an aferlife), when this idea had gained some currency by the time just before Christ was born, the 'third and fourth' generation was an outer limit. In other words, the fifth generation would not suffer 'punishment.'

All of this was, of course, popular belief, not strict doctrine, hence the "condemnation of Purgatory" by the Orthodox all those years ago! Well done, the Orthodox!!!

wild goose

p.s. I meant to add that santification, which may be known by another noun in Orthodox circles, is a process that happens to the believer while alive. Agios Pneumatos is the refiner's/refining fire! The believer is not subject to the 'fire' reserved for the devil (and it's messengers). Our fire cleanses us continually... while we take in oxygen and release carbon dioxide! :-)

Thanks for your reply! As I am new to this site, and to the Eastern ideas, may I ask why many Catholics on here read Orthodox works? Thanks!

Esther Williams also translated SAINT GREGORY THE HAGIORITE. I always wondered if she was the famous movie star of forty and fifty years ago.

As far as purgatory goes, I think one has to realize that we in the west, and especially the Latin language, (or so I believe), tend to form more defined boundaries in our concepts. What are action words in Greek, automatically become nouns to us.

In other words, by turning these words into nouns, we are placing our concepts within certain defined boundaries. I think the concept of purgatory as a defined place in the West, really has to do with that.

To me, purgatory and the toll houses, are really one and the same. The difference seems to be that the West thinks in terms of people being 'purged' of their sins while the East, (with their more up beat attitude), think in terms of people 'attaining' heaven by getting past the toll houses.

Zenovia

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Hi Zenovia,

Well put regarding the terms. Now regarding Esther Williams>> I also gave her a nod. She was my mother's favorite movie star since my mom was also a great swimmer. No, it's not the same person.

Blessings,
Porter aka Mary Jo

But there is no such definition.

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Originally posted by Porter:

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Originally posted by drewmeister2:
Was this book written by a Greek Orthodox hierarch, then? Or Catholic? If Orthodox,was he defend the purifying fire as Purgatory?
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Yes, he is a Metropolitan and is Greek Orthodox. He does not defend the purifying fire as purgatory. An entire chapter is devoted to this about which I will not elaborate. Just intended to list it as a source. Publication date is 1995. I assume he is still living.
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Thanks for your reply! As I am new to this site, and to the Eastern ideas, may I ask why many Catholics on here read Orthodox works? Thanks!

Drew,

Welcome to the Forum

Depending on how much reading you've done here, you may or may not realize that this is a very pan-Eastern environment. The majority of our members are either Eastern Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, with a smaller representation by those of the Orthodox and Catholic Oriental Churches, as well as several Latins and a few Protestants. The common thread that binds us is a profound love for or deep interest in Eastern Christianity.

There are theological differences between Catholics and Orthodox, albeit not as great in all respects as they once were. However, there is an underlying ecclestiastic patrimony and spirituality that is common to those of the East, regardless of whom they commemorate in the dyptichs of the Liturgy. In that regard, we see the value of the writings of respected authors and theologians to understanding and developing our own spirituality, even though the particular writer may not be of our own Church.

It is the wisdom of those who went before us and those who walk with us - in communion or on a parallel path, which will hopefully bring those who come after us into a common ecclesiology; understanding and appreciating each other is essential to that God-pleasing goal.

Many years,

Neil