www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Purgatory again

oh MY!!!!!
what shall we do about that? rejoice in it I suppose.
Much Love,
Jonn
:p

I remember reading that in medieval times, it was common to watch and wait until one could find one's enemy committing a mortal sin. Then one would kill him so he would go to hell. Now that's really carrying a grudge!

Dear Alex�

Least you think I am being terse with you� my tension is really at the thought of - theologians.

I have meet a few (Latin and Orthodox) and I can say this (but naturally this only applies to the few I have had personal dealings with) �

Of the Orthodox, on a whole� I find them to tow a strict party line when speaking publicly in any way� but when speaking privately they are very flexible. Things they would not dare say in public least they be stone with the stones of heresy. Public opinion and support can make or break an Orthodox clergyman. They have not the freedom of the Catholic theologian.

Of the Catholic theologians on a whole� I find them to be very full of themselves at all times. Publicly or privately. Be it millions of books published - or speaking engagements - they are invested in their own persona - and that is that. They have not the self-restraint of Orthodox theologians. Abuse of that freedom can run rampant a long time before the Vatican slaps them down.

Obviously there are wonderful theologians East and West - as well as intellectual haughty theologians East and West.

In no way are they a substitution for the Magistrium of the church - but many of them love it when we think that are.

And so I will only pay attention to those theologians of whom (East and West) about whom there is a long tradition of having honored by the church.

(now back to our regularly scheduled programming)


The image of being put in a place or state or condition - of hell - hades - purgator - heaven.. is fine with me if it speaks something that the good Lord intends to impart to someone. For that is the function of words and sign and symbols - to impart an invisible mental expereince which we call - meaning.


-ray

That was an interesting post.

In the past - when I had tried to figure out some divergence in theology East and West - it has done me good to trace it back to just such an early example.

Where the two rivers initially parted (one might say) and there at that point the two rivers are the nearest to each other so as to notice that they are both coming from one feed. The diffrence always seems to be semantic - the meaning being the same - it comes down to an petty fight over a couple of words.

-ray

Obviously this is a flagrant abuse of the Church's teaching but I think the mindset behind it persists until our own times. This really upsets me. More than any other topic, it seems to me, the distinction between mortal and venial sin, in the west, has been misapplied and dare i say exploited.

There is a scene in a novel by Sigrid Undset set in medieval Scandinavia where a young man is being taunted and provoked by a priest. The young man, unable to control himself strikes the priest. THe consequences? He is excommunicated while the priest gets a reprimand. This kind of thinking to me is utterly absurd.

At any rate, sorry for the digression from purgatory.

Jason

Have you heard of Ivan the Terrible, Tsar of Russia?

He was so malicious that when he had his enemies killed, he also had all their friends and relatives killed too so that thare would be no one around to pray for their souls!

Alice

IIRC, in the older code of canon law, excommunication was the penalty for hitting a priest - or religious too, if I remember right. I don't think that particular law is in the current code. I've met a couple of priests that definitely deserved a good smack. Evil people are nothing new. Like Christ said of the poor, they will always be with us. And evil is not restricted to laity.

Perhaps there is also a pratical reason - so there would be no one to seek revenge.

-ray

Dear Ray,

The problem is that they are theologians, and not saints. As for purgatory, I cannot understand how anyone can believe that a person who repents of his sins right before death, will achieve the same 'state' (for want of a better word), of unity with out Lord, as one that has been growing in Grace for years, if not decades.

Zenovia

Zenovia,

I agree with part of what you say. Yes, it is difficult to understand how someone who repents of his sins just before death and embraces Christ will be in the same �state� after death than someone who has been growing in Christ for many years. But that is the mystery of God�s grace. In the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard (Matthew 20) those who came at the end of the day were given their wages before those who worked a full day. The landowner told those who grumbled about getting the same for an entire day�s work that they should not be envious because he master is generous. The Lord certainly has the right to reward people however He sees fit. I think the point of the parable is that we should not be concerned about those who come late. We should welcome them and be thankful that they came.

St. John Chrysostom based his Paschal Homily (Easter Sermon) on this section from Matthew.

Reading the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard always reminds me of the Prodigal Son (last Sunday�s Gospel reading). It always seems annoying that the good son was never actually told to go and feast with his friends. But that, apparently, must wait until the life to come.

Admin

Zenovia, How do you feel about Christ's response to the repentent thief? And do you take the position of the faithful son, against his father's joy at the return of the prodigal?

Ray,

No, this is a fact about Tsar Ivan which I heard on the History Channel. I did not make it up. Prayer for the dead was a *very* important practice in *very* Orthodox Russia.

In Christ,
Alice

wait until they are found committing a mortal sin, and then......
HOW CONVENIENT
smells like what Jezebel and Ahab did to poor innocent Naboth when eminenet domain didn't seem to be doing the job, and they cooked up some rubbish about Naboth committing blasphemy. sounds like an idea, albeit a more than naughty one.
Much Love,
Jonn

We need to meditate frequently on the fact that the Church is a deep, great mystery, so that we never forget it. We cannot fully understand the Church on this earth. If men, using only their reason, were to analyse it, they would see only a group of people who abide by certain precepts and think in a similar way. But that would not be the Church.

In the Church we Catholics find our faith, our norms of conduct, our prayer, our sense of fraternity. Through it we are united with all our brothers who have already left this life and are being cleansed in Purgatory � the Church suffering � and with those who already enjoy the beatific vision and love forever the thrice holy God � the Church triumphant. The Church is in our midst and at the same time transcends history. It was born under the mantle of our Lady and continues to praise her on earth and in heaven as its mother.

Let us strengthen our faith in the supernatural character of the Church. Let us profess it with shouts, if necessary, for there are many, physically within the Church and even in high places, who have forgotten these capital truths. They try to propose an image of the Church which is neither holy nor one. Neither would it be apostolic since it is not founded on the rock of Peter. Their substitute is not catholic, because it is riddled with unwarranted irregularities which are mere human caprices.

This is nothing new. Since Jesus Christ Our Lord founded the Church, this Mother of ours has suffered constant persecution. In times past the attacks were delivered openly. Now, in many cases, persecution is disguised. But today, as yesterday, the Church continues to be buffeted from many sides.

Let me say once again that I am not a pessimist by habit or by temperament. How can we be pessimistic if Our Lord has promised that he will be with us until the end of the world?

The effusion of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles gathered together in the Cenacle provided the first public manifestation of the Church.

Our Father God is a loving Father. To help us understand this, Scripture graphically tells us that he takes care of us like the apple of his eye. He never ceases to sanctify, through the Holy Spirit, the Church founded by his beloved Son. But the Church is going through difficult moments. Confused shouting is heard on all sides, and all the errors which have occurred in the course of the centuries are reappearing with great fanfare.

(St. Josemaria)


I guess you can tell that I'm reading the works of St. Josemaria Escriva, Founder of Opus Dei? LOL

In His great mercy,
+Fr. Gregory

I see.

Yes, I believe you.

Imagine that type of cruelty!! When one thinks of that you have got to believe it steps over into the diabolical.

I remember in my youth when I met two mob hit men. Thier souls were dead. Like dead bodies walking and talking. They were not after me. But dead men walking they were. I mean it.

I worked in a hospital for several years and you could always tell when you had walked into a room and the person in the bed was dead - not sleeping.

The same - emptyness.

-ray