www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Fatima To Become INTERFAITH SHRINE!

Can Fatimites begin praying for the conversion of Muslims?

Dear Arturo and LatinTrad,

Certainly we wish the Church to be united as it was in the first millenium of its history.

But where in the message of Fatima did our Lady ever speak about conversion in the sense of Russian Orthodox becoming Roman Catholics?

Catholics assumed that because the Mother of God appeared to Catholic children.

But Our Lady has appeared at Zeitoun in Egypt above an Oriental Orthodox Church - perhaps we should become Oriental Orthodox now?

As for ultimate unity between East and West, I believe it will occur.

And when we wake up and see it happen, I believe that the shape of that unity will be different from what any of us thought would occur.

Again, Arturo, you must know that journalists always have an axe to grind and are dedicated to sensationalism.

I've worked with politicians for over 18 years now and have physically been to political events.

The next day I would read the journalistic accounts and reports - more often than not, I wondered if the journalists and I were at the same event or not. What they were saying in the newspapers had no connection to what went on etc.

We need more information on this matter - I trust EWTN and related sources to look into it.

IF it is as this report suggests, you can be assured that Catholics will strenuously oppose such a project.

I've nothing against the Tridentine Liturgy, in fact, I believe the Eastern Orthodox Patriarchs did not agree with Rome on bringing in the Novus Ordo.

There seems to be strong currents of conservative Catholic thought that suggest a return to the ancient Liturgy of St Peter.

But the division between Lefebvre and Rome goes even deeper than this - for the Lefebvrists, the day Rome moved away from ultramontanism was a sad day for them indeed.

And what is truly amazing is that Lefebvrists, to secure support for their position of disobedience to their Patriarch in Rome, are now sometimes quoting Eastern ecclesial praxis . . .

We Eastern Catholics have suffered under the former monolithic, Roman Church structure where we were considered "second-class Catholics" at best.

Keep the Tridentine Liturgy by all means. As for the former ultramontanism that was once associated with it, just keep it.

Alex

Dear CJ,

Well, you've certainly put your finger on an interesting issue.

As you know, "Fatima" is the name of Muhammad's daughter, venerated as a holy one in Islam and the town was named for her in the Arabic days in the Iberian peninsula.

Archbishop Fulton Sheen often pointed out that Our Lady of Fatima has a relation to the Muslims in this way - who, as we know, venerate her as a prophet.

He quoted a Muslim conference held years back where the Muslim scholars agreed, in principle, that the Incarnation of God would be the best possible means of uniting God and mankind.

They also recommended that a reconsideration of the crucifixion of Jesus be given within Islam by way of accepting that Jesus was indeed crucified etc.

As Archbishop Sheen (who had biritual faculties so he was one of us too! ) said that who knows the miracles of God's Grace that will be worked through the prayers of Our Lady of Fatima?

Alex

Dear Alex,

I would be ecstatic if Byzantine and Oriental Orthodox Churches set up shop in Fatima. I would not be if Muslims, Hindus, and other pagans, did. By my "Lefebvrist" comment, I did not want to praise Latin triumphalism. I did want to say that the line between ecumenical dialogue and indiffentism is much thinner than most want to accept. And I would also like to say that I think it is very illusory to speak of a world of peace outside of the Church of Jesus Christ. Even if you try to use the best theological gymnastics, stretching out the Incarnation to include all of humanity and portraying everyone as an "unconscious Christian", you will only make a fool of yourself trying to tell an African snake-worshipper "you really believe the same thing that I believe", when in reality he has no intention to do so. We can be friendly, yes, but we have to be honest. Even in my own personal relations with co-workers and others with no religion, I never tell them that they are going to hell, that they are in darkness, etc., but I always say, "Listen to the voice in your heart. If you follow it, you will be fine." But I do this with the expectation that they will hear the voice of the Holy Spirit, and in that way convert in the way that He sees is the best in his own life. But I do not do so thinking that the Spirit will lead him further along in his error. And if people inquire more, I tell them the truth: salvation and grace come through Jesus Christ.

I think that, in the end, when treating the pagan world, the best way would be the way of gentle intolerance. Yes, we should listen, but as the teacher and not as the student. In all humility, because we have beheld the resurrection of Christ in ourselves, and "woe to us if we do not preach the Gospel", WE HAVE EVERYTHING TO TEACH AND NOTHING TO LEARN. And this should be our attitude to all those in the darkness of idolatry and Islamism. To even hint at truth or peace outside of Christ and His Church is pure delusion and even blasphamy.

As for our Sister Churches, they are our partners in this, and not the objects of it.

Arturo

Comments on this subject from theDaily Catholic News -

http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/2003Nov/ed110803.htm

OrthoMan

Dear Alex,

Indeed you are correct about the 'conversion of Russia' prayers requested by our Lady in Fatima.
Even I prayed for that conversion.

It is obvious that she was speaking about the Atheistic Communist regime, and not about Orthodox becoming Roman Catholic!

It never ceases to amaze me how people, whether Orthodox or Catholic can love themselves and their own ways of belief more than God, thus reading whatever they want into the Omnipotence and Greatness of He who is without sin, pettiness, and ego, as we are.

In Christ,
Alice

I believe there already is a Byzantine chapel (Domus Pash- sp?) in Fatima. Isn't the Icon of Our Lady of Kazan still there?

Have a nice day, all. Gotta go now.

Joe

I have recently been told that there is a UGCC Church there but at the moment, but sadly like Lourdes they are without a priest at present

Sorry OrthoMan, but I can't bring myself to consider this site as a valid reference for what is going on in the RC Church today. Don

Being traditionally minded I have no problem with the Daily Catholic, it does not hid behind modern liberal values.

james

Dear James,

How can you accept a group that makes the following statement;

Dear fooled friends who have bought into the lie for so many years, do you see now why we - when realizing the truth and what the Roman Catholic Faith truly teaches - could no longer follow the pied piper of pantheistic pabulum - John Paul II and the very Vatican II agenda he played a major part in forging, fomenting and furthering with the appointment of so many wolves in shepherds' clothing?

It sickens me.

This link has no place on this forum nor anywhere in polite society.


David, the Byzantine Catholic

Orthoman,

Citing the link from the "DailyCatholic" to support your original post in this thread is like citing the most extreme Old Calendrist jurisdiction to prove that "Ecumenist" Orthodox are heretical.

The original "news" report that you introduced remains unsubstantiated.

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

[I believe there already is a Byzantine chapel (Domus Pash- sp?) in Fatima. Isn't the Icon of Our Lady of Kazan still there?]

No, the Pope has it and is still trying to use it as a bargaining tool to enter Russia!

Just last week he brought it down for Putin to venerate during their meeting. One wonders why he just didn't give it to Putin to take back.

It is not the original Icon which was stolen and destroyed by being burned (see my recent post about Russian devotion to Mary. It is one of many
copies in and out of Russia with miraculous powers. Best he keep it to remind him of the greatest miracle attributed to this most venerated Icon.

OrthoMan

Dear Dave:

I certainly understand your distress since it's not nice to hear this kind of exagerated comments against Church leaders.

But do you really think these Christians who made these statements did so for free or just because they don't like the Pope and the Roman Bishops?

I would say the same about the Old Caldendar Church articles when they attack Orthodox Patriarchs calling them Communist supporters, Sergianists, etc. I disagree with their ways but I think they have a reason to be angry.

Isn0t the same case with Pope and Roman Bishops, whose liberal attitudes have caused this alienation of so many Latin Christians?

And what do you have against the Pope visiting Russia?

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com