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As far as I am concerned this whole d@mn thing is just a bunch of hearsay and rumor.

Bob, you yourself chided the other forumites (rightly) for believing tabloid-reports from Russia. Please do not be so quick to believe tabloid-reports from Portugal.

By the way, you tend to speak very cynically of Pope John Paul II. Just keep in mind that the Pope has a delicate balancing act to perform. He has gone farther than any previous Pope in making overtures to the East. I am sure he would like nothing better than to give back Our Lady of Kazan to the Russians. But keep in mind that to do so, while the Russian government continues to restrict and oppress the Catholic Church, would be a betrayal of all the Catholics in Russsia. God bless.

L-T

Mexican,

Some of them really don't like the Pope!

There's an old saying that "where's there's smoke, there's fire." And I think it can apply in this case. That there have been some major problems in the Catholic Church in the past fifty years is no secret. I think things have really improved though--I've seen some major changes in the 11 years I've been in the Church.

I'd like to see more about this event that OrthoMan has brought to our attention. I think the "news" article he cited is a wild exaggeration. Not to say there may have been some elements of the event that should be regretted. Perhaps so, I don't know.

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Everything written today should be taken with a grain of salt. Alot of older RC's are alienated from the Church due to its take it or leave it attitude, no consideration was given to the older generations , they were cast aside, why ? To please new age RC's, there is less respect in today's Church by the younger RC generation .

Maybe its now time for me to be Orthodox.

james

[I am sure he would like nothing better than to give back Our Lady of Kazan to the Russians. But keep in mind that to do so, while the Russian government continues to restrict and oppress the Catholic Church, would be a betrayal of all the Catholics in Russsia. God bless.]

The Pope has stated many, many times he wants to give it back. The catch is that he stipulates he has to personally deliver it back into Russia. Why couldn't he have just given it to Putin last week as a jesture of love and friendship towards the Russian people? That jesture would have gone a long way towards improved relations.

Considering the history of the Icon (which as a Pole I'm sure the Pope is very aware of) the Russians aren't going to let the Polish Pope triumphantly march into Russia carrying the Icon. The Pope knows this but continues to use the Icon to manipulate a clueless western press to put the ROC in a bad light -

The Kazan Icon
22 October / 4 November

The celebration of the Most-holy Theotokos, in honor of her Icon known as the Kazan Icon, WAS ESTALISHED IN THANKS FOR THE SAVING OF MOSCOW AND ALL RUSSIA FROM THE ATTACK OF THE POLES IN 1612. The late 16th and early 17th Centuries are known in Russian history as the Time of Troubles. THE NATION WAS ATTACKED BY POLISH ARMIES, WHO MOCKED THE ORTHODOX FAITH, AND WHO LOOTED AND BURNED CHURCHES, TOWNS AND VILLAGES. By means of deceit, they succeeded in seizing Moscow. In response to the appeal of His Holiness Patriarch Hermogenes (commemorated on May 12) the Russian people rose up in defense of the homeland. The miraculous Icon of the Most-holy Theotokos was sent from Kazan to join the militia led by Prince Dimitry Mikhailovitch Pozharsky.

In his "Homily on the day of the appearance of the Icon of the Mother of God in Kazan" (celebrated July 8), Holy Hierarch Dimitry of Rostov (commemorated September 21) said: The Mother of God saves from great misfortunes and evils not only the righteous, but also the sinful, but what manner of sinners? Those, who like the prodigal son, return to their Heavenly Father; who lament [over their sins]; who, like the publican, beat their breasts; who are like the sinful woman that wept at the feet of Christ and washed His feet with her tears; those who, like the thief on the cross, confess Him. The Mother of God looks after such sinners and rushes to help them, and saves them from great misfortunes and evils.

Recognizing that the misfortune had been permitted because of their sins, the entire people and militia observed 3-day fast, and turned to the Lord and His most-pure mother for divine help. Their prayers were heeded. Holy Hierarch Arseny (later to become bishop of Suzdal), who was a prisoner of the Poles, sent word that he had had a vision revealing by the intercession of the Most-holy Virgin, God's judgment been had turned to mercy. INSPIRED BY THIS NEWS, THE ARMIES ON OCTOBER 22, 1612 LIBERATED MOSCOW FROM THE POLISH OCCUPIERS. The celebration in honor of the Kazan Icon of the Most-holy Theotokos was established in 1649. To this day, that Icon is highly venerated by the Russian Orthodox people.

---------

The history of the original Icon -

IIRC the original icon was discovered underground by a 9-year old girl
through a vision of the Virgin who told her where to dig it out. This
happened in 1579, and several years two copies were made, one for the
Kazan Cathedral in Moscow (now in the New Annunciation Cathedral), and
another that is now preserved in the Kazan Cathedral, St Petersburg.

The original icon had been kept in one of Kazan monasteries until 1904
when one damned night it was stolen. Several years later the thief was
arrested, and the icon's golden crown was found in his house. The
thief said he was so scared of what he had done that he cut the icon
in pieces with his axe, and burnt the remains.


OrthoMan

Has anyone considered this "event" in Portugal in light of the CDF Declaration, Dominus Iesus? It seems that the statements made by the participants in the conference are in direct contradiction to the clear message of Dominus Iesus.

A short quote from this Vatican directive should clarify the matter:

5. As a remedy for this relativistic mentality, which is becoming ever more common, it is necessary above all to reassert the definitive and complete character of the revelation of Jesus Christ. In fact, it must be firmly believed that, in the mystery of Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Son of God, who is �the way, the truth, and the life� (Jn 14:6), the full revelation of divine truth is given: �No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son wishes to reveal him� (Mt 11:27); �No one has ever seen God; God the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, has revealed him� (Jn 1:18); �For in Christ the whole fullness of divinity dwells in bodily form� (Col 2:9-10).

Once again, Roma locuta est...

Dave

OrthoMan,

Isn't it time to bury the past? I don't buy the idea that John Paul's desire to visit Russia has anything to do with an ethnic one-up-manship at all.

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

The Communists from Russia desecrated Catholic Churches, etc. etc., but it would be infantile to hold that against the Russian Orthodox people today.

Similarly, it is infantile to fuel old hatreds against the Catholic Church by trying to resurrect the wars between Poland and the Tsars.

Orthodox Christians, no less than Catholics, have sinned. Why is it that the sins of Catholics, no matter how many centuries old, continue to be fodder for hurt feelings?

LatinTrad

But I heard on the internet that the Pope is planning to lead a Polish army into Russia to make off with the OL of Vladimir icon...

[Isn't it time to bury the past? I don't buy the idea that John Paul's desire to visit Russia has anything to do with an ethnic one-up-manship at all.]

You are entitled to your opinion as I am mine. Lets forget the history of the Icon and just narrow it down to the present. I personally find it reprehensible that the religious leader of one billion Roman Catholics who bills himself as the 'Vicar of Christ on earth' would use a sacred object as a bargaining chip! The Pope would have gotten much better results if he had, as a jesture of love and respect, returned the Icon to what he calls his sister church.

What he chose to do was remind the Russians of the past Polish and Roman Catholic aggression towards them. Knowing full well how they would react.

OrthoMan

There have been other items returned to other Churches.

Why is this a "bargaining chip"? Why can't he be allowed to visit Catholics in Russia? What's the big deal?

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

All bishops are �Vicars of Christ� because they stand in the place of Christ. This is why we kiss their hand. The Holy Father is the �Vicar of Christ� in a special way because he is the Bishop of Rome. Every bishop � Catholic and Orthodox - is a �Vicar of Christ�.

I do agree with Bob that the Holy Father should simply send the icon back to Moscow. I disagree that there would have been different results. Whether the Holy Father is permitted to deliver the icon himself or eventually sends it with a small delegation he will be criticized for it.

I disagree with Bob about the Holy Father knowing how the Russians would react. The Holy Father has expressed a keen interest in dialoging with Moscow. He just isn�t that stupid to intentionally cause ill will towards those in the very Church he seeks to dialogue with. Such a charge might easily stick to some of the Vatican bureaucrats, as well as their equivalents in the MP. It is only human nature to want to see to something this important yourself.

--

Regarding the topic of this thread, there is no official statement that the Catholic Church intends to create at Fatima anything similar to what people are accusing it of. My guess is that, since there appears to be good will by people of other faiths towards at least parts of the messages of Fatima, that the Church might be creating a new center to actively witness Christ from. Similar centers exist at Assisi and Allepo.

Dear Administrator,

As usual, very well said, and divinely inspired.

May God bless you always,

In Christ our Lord,
Alice

When Portugal was consecrated by the bishops to the Immaculate Heart in 1931, it went from being a secular masonic state to a Catholic nation and was protected from World War II and Communism.

When Russia supposedly "converts," the KGB leader becomes president, people are dying, and the Catholic faith is brutally oppressed by the government.

The Pope himself admitted in 1984 that he did not consecrate Russia. Sister Lucy confirmed this in 1987.

Logos Teen

Dear Logos Teen,

No offense, dear younger brother in Christ, but I think that you are being quite uncharitable in your most recent post.

Russia is not perfect, and certainly the MP is far from perfect in his paranoia of all other faiths, ESPECIALLY the Roman Catholic faith, but to say that reverting back to Orthodoxy is somehow not being 'converted' from official state imposed Atheism is offensive.

I trust you have been tired, because these comments are not indicative of your Christian commitment and spirit.

Blessings!
Alice

Dear Administrator,

Yes, the title "Vicar of Christ" was originally used by the Byzantine Emperors who called the Councils and otherwise were involved with the Church (for good and bad).

This imperious title was later taken over by the Popes of Rome - and has never been used by any other bishop in any Church.

Bishops, including the Pope, are successors to the Apostles, absolutely - a fact our Church underlines every Thursday with the office dedicated to both the Apostles and to St Nicholas who represents the episcopate.

Interestingly, Coptic Catholics are the only ones in the world to be in communion with TWO Popes - of Rome and Alexandria.

Polls conducted among Russians have tended to show that the average Russian is attracted to the person of Pope John Paul II. This was certainly the case in Ukraine among the Orthodox as well during his visit there.

The fact is that with the years of communism, there are Russians and Ukrainians who feel disconnected to what was their ancestral Church - the Orthodox Church - something one might expect given the circumstances there.

I would submit that the current coolness in Orthodox-Catholic relations in Russia has more to do with the leadership issue than with past historic recriminations over Orthodox-Catholic conflict - which existed in a national/cultural context that is simply absent in the current state of affairs i.e. there is no direct threat from a Polish invasion as was the case before etc.

I would recommend, Sir, that this thread be closed as it is a straw one . . .

Alex