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Dear Anthony,

EWTN has a press release on its website that speaks of the "Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church" at WYD in Toronto.

So this is how you raise their Latinophrone consciousness about our Churches?

What are we paying you for?

Alex

Alex,

An article appeared in our local paper from an AP reporter who referred to the event as "Roman Catholic Youth Day" !!!!

What are we chopped liver?

Barbara

Dear Barbara,

I would say, "chopped kobassa."

Then there's chopped dalmata, chopped halvah etc.

Either the press know's absolute nothing about the Eastern Catholic Churches, or else they've been talking to some of our Orthodox friends . . .

Alex

It seems to be a frequent misfortune that the media sees even the eastern catholics as Roman becasue of their communion with the Vatican. Trying to get out to the world that we are Not Under the Pope, simply in communion with Him is no small task.

Athanasius

Dear Athanasius,

Let me be the "Orthoman's Advocate" here for a minute.

I know we say we are only "in union with Rome" and not "under" Rome.

And I know we really believe it.

I know also that our Orthodox brethren and sistren don't buy it.

Given Rome's papal monarchy and centralized power structure that is evident for all, even the secular media, to see and behold, I don't doubt that they would laugh if we told them that we are somehow "equals" with Rome, joined together as such etc.

When an Orthodox bishop was told, by the Soviet authorities, to sign a document stating that there is no religious persecution in the former USSR, he simply said that "If there wasn't any, I wouldn't be hear."

If we were truly "in union with Rome," and I know this is a bad comparison, we wouldn't have the issues we do with married priests, patriarchates etc.

The press report on what they see.

What do you think they see when they see us?

Alex

Dear ECs:

It seems your accounts of the initial WYD events are "off-target," as far as the Eastern Catholic Churches are concerned. Would a more active (and vigorous) participation in the preparatory stages have done the trick?

19-Jul-2002 -- ZENIT.org News Agency

EASTERN-RITE YOUTH WILL FEEL RIGHT AT HOME IN TORONTO

Special Liturgies and Catecheses Planned

TORONTO, JULY 18, 2002 (Zenit.org).- Organizers of World Youth Day will allocate special times of prayer and dialogue to participants from the Eastern rites of the Catholic Church.

Some from the East are just emerging from years of religious persecution, or still live in difficult circumstances. Arriving in Canada will be young people from Lebanon, Syria, and elsewhere in the Mideast, and from Eastern Europe.

Among the ecclesial representatives who will be in Toronto is Cardinal Ignace Moussa Daoud, patriarch emeritus of Antioch of the Syrians and prefect of the Congregation for the Oriental Churches. He will give catechesis to the young people.

Participants from Eastern-rite traditions, such as Alexandrian, Antiochian, Armenian, Chaldean and Byzantine, will have their own liturgy and catechesis in the days preceding the vigil with the Pope on Saturday, July 27.

They will meet in the church of St. Nicholas and Our Lady of Lebanon, in Trinity Bellwoods Park, in Holy Cross Parish, in the National Trade Center and in Marilyn Bell Park.

Catecheses will be held in English, French, Arabic and in the bishops' Slavic languages, according to their rite.

The initiative has awakened "a certain curiosity in many groups. So appropriate places have been selected to be able to accommodate additional young people who want to know something more about their Eastern-rite brothers," said Rima Hbeika, an organizer.


Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam!

Dear Amado,

Actually, our Eastern sights are directly ON target, Friend.

The target reads, "EWTN."

Ready, aim . . . FIRE!

I'm off to a WYD event hosted by some Latin participants . . .

Alex

[Dear Athanasius,

Let me be the "Orthoman's Advocate" here for a minute.]

Hahahaha! I had already pressed the reply button before reading your reply Alex.

You took the words right out of my mouth. No need for me to reply.

Except to ask Athanasius if the following Canons of the Eastern Catholic Church no longer apply -

[Note that I am still trying to get a copy without success. I even called that Monastery in Washington, D.C. They said they would call back. That was over six weeks ago]

Canon 42

Just as, by the Lord's decision, Saint Peter and the other Apostles constitute one college, so in a similar way the Roman Pontiff, successor
of Peter, and the bishops, successors of the Apostles, are joined together.

Canon 43

The bishop of the Church of Rome, in whom resides the office (munus) given in special way by the Lord to Peter, first of the Apostles and
to be transmitted to his successors, is head of the college of bishops, the Vicar of Christ and Pastor of the entire Church on earth; therefore,
in virtue of his office (munus) he enjoys supreme, full, immediate and universal ordinary power in the Church which he can always freely
exercise.

Canon 45

{1} The Roman Pontiff, by virtue of his office (munus), not only has power over the entire Church but also possesses a primacy of ordinary
power over all the eparchies and groupings of them by which the proper, ordinary and immediate power which bishops possess in the eparchy
entrusted to their care is both strengthened and safeguarded.

{2} The Roman Pontiff, in fulfilling the office (munus) of the supreme pastor of the Church is always united in communion with the other
bishops and with the entire Church; however, he has the right, according to the needs of the Church, to determine the manner, either personal
or collegial, of exercising this function.

{3} There is neither appeal nor recourse against a sentence or decree of the Roman Pontiff.

Canon 46

{1} In exercising his office (munus) the Roman Pontiff is assisted by the bishops who aid him in various ways and among these is the synod
of bishops; moreover the cardinals, the Roman curia, pontifical legates and other persons and various institutes assist him according to the
needs of the times; all these persons and institutes carry out the task committed to them in his name and by his authority for the good of all
the Churches, according to the norm of law established by the Roman Pontiff himself.

{2} The participation of patriarchs and other hierarchs who preside over Churches sui iuris in the synod of bishops is regulated by special
norms established by the Roman Pontiff.

Canon 50

{1} The college of bishops exercises power over the entire Church in a solemn manner in an ecumenical council.

{2} The college exercises the same power through the united action of the bishops dispersed in the world, which action as such has been
initiated or has been freely accepted by the Roman Pontiff so that a truly collegial act results.

{3} It is for the Roman Pontiff, in keeping with the needs of the Church, to select and promote the ways by which the college of bishops is
to exercise collegially its function regarding the entire Church.

Canon 51

{1} It is for the Roman Pontiff alone to convoke an ecumenical council, to preside over it personally or through others, to transfer, suspend
or dissolve it, and to confirm its decrees.


{2} It is for the same Roman Pontiff to determine matters to be treated in a council and to establish the order to be followed in the same
council; to the questions proposed by the Roman Pontiff the fathers of a council can add other questions, to be approved
by the same Roman Pontiff.

Canon 52

{1} It is the right and obligation of all and only the bishops who are members of the college of bishops to participate in an ecumenical
council with a deliberative vote.

{2} The supreme authority of the Church can also call others who are not bishops to an ecumenical council and determine what part they take
in it.

Canon 54

{1} Decrees of an ecumenical council do not have obligatory force unless they are approved by the Roman Pontiff together with the fathers of
the council and are confirmed by the Roman Pontiff and promulgated at his order.

{2} When the college of bishops takes collegial action in another manner, initiated or freely accepted by the Roman Pontiff, in order for its
decrees to have binding force, they need this same confirmation and promulgation.

Canon 595

{1} The Church, to whom Christ the Lord entrusted the deposit of faith so that, assisted by the Holy Spirit, it might reverently safeguard
revealed truth, more closely examine it and faithfully proclaim and expound it, has the innate duty and right to preach the gospel to all
nations, independent of any human power whatever.

{2} To the Church belongs the right always and everywhere to announce moral principles, including those pertaining to the social order, and
to make judgments on any human affairs to the extent that they are required by the fundamental rights of the human person or the salvation
of souls.

Canon 596

The office of teaching in the name of the Church belongs only to bishops; but that function is shared, according to the norm of law, both by
those who have been made collaborators of the bishops by sacred orders and by those who, though not in sacred orders, have received the
mandate to teach.

Canon 597

{1} The Roman Pontiff, in virtue of his office, possesses infallible teaching authority if, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the Christian
faithful who is to confirm his fellow believers in the faith, he proclaims with a definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held.

{2} The college of bishops also possesses infallible teaching authority if the bishops, gathered in an ecumenical council, exercise their
teaching authority, and, as teachers and judges of faith and morals for the universal Church, declare that a doctrine of faith or morals must be
definitively held; they also exercise it scattered throughout the world but united in a bond of communion among themselves and with the
successor of Peter when together with that same Roman Pontiff in their capacity as authentic teachers of faith and morals they agree on an
opinion to be held as definitive.

{3} No doctrine is understood to be infallibly defined unless it is clearly established as such.

Canon 598

{1} All that is contained in the written word of God or in tradition, that is, in the one deposit of faith entrusted to the Church and also
proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium, must be believed
with divine and catholic faith; it is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacred
magisterium; therefore, all are bound to avoid any doctrines whatever which are contrary to these truths.

{2} Furthermore, each and everything set forth definitively by the magisterium of the Church regarding teaching on faith and morals must be
firmly accepted and held; namely, those things required for the holy keeping and faithful exposition of the deposit of faith; therefore, anyone
who rejects propositions which are to be held definitively sets himself against the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Canon 599

A religious obsequium of intellect and will, even if not the assent of faith, is to be paid to the teaching on faith or morals which the Roman
Pontiff or the college of bishops enunciate when they exercise the authentic magisterium even if they do not intend to proclaim it with a
definitive act; therefore the Christian faithful are to take care to avoid whatever is not in harmony with that teaching.

Canon 600

Although they do not enjoy infallible teaching authority, the bishops who are in communion with the head and members of the college,
whether as individuals or gathered in synods or in particular councils, are authentic teachers and instructors of the faith for the faithful
entrusted to their care; the faithful must adhere to the authentic teaching of their own bishops with a religious obsequium of soul.

Canon 1436

{1} Whoever denies a truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or who calls into doubt, or who totally repudiates the
Christian faith, and does not retract after having been legitimately warned, it to be punished as a heretic or an apostate with a major
excommunication; a cleric moreover can be punished with other penalties, not excluding deposition.

{2} In addition to these cases, whoever obstinately rejects a teaching that the Roman Pontiff or the College of Bishops, exercising their
authentic magisterium, have set forth to be held definitively, or who affirms what they have condemned as erroneous, and does not retract
after having been legitimately warned, is to be punished with an appropriate penalty.

Dear Orthoman,

Thank you for those beautiful Canons!

I'll download them so I can keep them near me on my desk!

Alex

Alex

What is "Latinophrone?"

Bob

[ 07-24-2002: Message edited by: Bob King ]

Latinophrone= Latinizer I believe

I have a priest friend who was called a Latinophrone by a renowned Russian emigre Professor at Vladimir's Seminary back in the 60's!!!

Dear Brian and Bob,

Yes, Latinophrone equals "Latinizer" or "Latin-Minded."

It was also used to name those Greeks at the Council of Florence who supported union with Rome or Latin theology.

Who would dare use such a name to call others with?

Alex

Orthoman,

You still are trying to get mileage out of your "inability" to order our Code of Canons? The Administrator posted how to order it. It is not a "top secret" document. Just call the Canon Law Society on the phone and order one. It's that easy!

As to the canons quoted...

I praise God for the ministry of the Successor of St Peter!

I'm reminded of the Q&A recently on the OCA website where Fr John Matusiak replied that St Peter was not the Rock of Matthew 16:

http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Q-and-A_OLD/on-this-rock.html

The texts for the Feasts of Sts Peter and Paul and the Synaxis of the Twelve Apostles (June 29 & 30) say otherwise!


For more quotes from that feast see the section under St Peter at:

http://www.catholic-forum.com/members/popestleo/orthopopes.html

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

[ 07-24-2002: Message edited by: DTBrown ]

[You still are trying to get mileage out of your "inability" to order our Code of Canons? The Administrator posted how to order it. It is not a "top secret" document.]

David: The administrator gave me two sources to order the book. The first was through a website which requires you to fill in an 'Organization' block when placing your order. If you do not fill in this block or if you fill in an unacceptable name they won't accept
the order. The second source was through a Byzantine Catholic Monastery bookstore in Washington, D.C. I called on a Thursday trying to order it. The person I talked to said she would have to see if it was in stock. She would call me back on on Saturday since they would be closed on Friday. I'm still waiting.
If its so easy to get, then perhaps YOU can give me another source besides the two I have tried?

As far as this 'upon this rock' game, we have played it before. For everyone you quote I can come back with another to dispute it -

Cyprian, unwilling to grant even a simple primacy to the Bishop of Rome, considers that "the whole body of bishops is addressed
in Peter." St. Cyprian rightly concludes that the "Rock is the unity of faith, not the person of Peter." (De Catholicae Ecclesiae Unitate,
cap. 4-5)

"I believe that by the Rock you must understand the unshaken faith of the apostles." (St. Hilary, 2nd Book on the Trinity)

Of all the Fathers who interpret these passages in the Gospels (Matthew 16:18, et. al.) NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM applies these
passages to the Roman bishops as Peter's successor. How many Fathers had busied themselves with these texts, yet not one of them whose
commentaries we possess, Origen, Chrysostom, Hilary, Augustine, Theodoric... has dropped the faintest hint that the primacy of Peter is the consequence of the commission and
promise to Peter. Not one of them has explained the Rock or foundation on which Christ will build His Church as the office given to Peter to be transmitted to his successors, but
they understood by it either Christ Himself, or Peter's confession of faith in Christ, often both together. Or else they thought Peter was the foundation equally with the other apostles,
the twelve being together the foundation stones of the Church." (Ignaz von Dollinger, The Papacy and the Council, p. 91)

"This one (Peter) is called a rock in order that on his FAITH (Rock) he may receive the foundations of the Church." - St. Gregory Nazianzen,
26th Discourse

"The Rock on which Christ will build His Church means the faith of confession." - St. John Chrysostom, 53rd Homily on St. Matthew

"The Rock (petra) is the blessed and only rock of the faith confessed by the mouth of Peter. It is on this Rock of the confession of faith that
the Church is built." - St. Hilary of Poitiers, 2nd book on the Trinity

Note: Hilary wrote the first lengthy study of the doctrine of the Church in Latin. Proclaimed a "Doctor of the Church" by the Roman See in 1851, he is called the Athanasius of the
Western Church.


Cyril of Alexandria

Upon St. John, Book JJ, Chap. XII


'"The word "Rock" has only a denominative value-it signifies nothing but the steadfast and firm faith of the apostles."

In his Letter to Nestorius, St. Cyril says:

"Peter and John were equal in dignity and honor. Christ is the foundation of all -the unshakeable Rock upon which we are all built as a spiritual edifice."

"Christ is the Rock Who granted to His apostles that they should be called rocks. God has founded His Church on this Rock, and it is from this Rock that Peter has been named." - St. Jerome, 6th book on Matthew

"Faith is the foundation of the Church, for it was not of the person but the faith of St. Peter of which it was said, 'the gates of hell shall not prevail'; certainly it is the confession of faith which has vanquished the powers of hell."

"Jesus Christ is the Rock. He did not deny the grace of His name... to Peter because he borrowed from the Rock the constancy and solidity of his faith- thy Rock is thy faith, and faith is the foundation of the Church. If thou art a Rock, thou shalt be in the Church, for the Church is built upon the Rock... (the profession of faith in Christ Jesus)." - St. Ambrose: The Incarnation

(Note: St. Ambrose often spoke disparagingly of the Bishop of Rome as usurping the legitimate rights of other bishops in the Church. Cf. On the Incarnation, On St. Luke, and
On the 69th Psalm.)

St. Augustine, one of the most renowned theologians of the Western Church, claimed by the Roman See as "Father and Doctor", says:

"In one place I said... that the Church had been built on Peter as the Rock... but in fact it was not said to Peter, "Thou art the Rock," but rather "Thou art Peter." The Rock was
Jesus Christ, Peter having confessed Him as all the Church confesses Him, He was then called Peter, "the Rock"... (ed, for his faith) ...Between these two sentiments let the reader
choose the most probable." (St. Augustine, Retractions - 13th Sermon; Contra Julianum 1:13)

St. Augustine also adds: "Peter had not a primacy over the apostles, but among the apostles, and Christ said to them "I will build upon Myself, I will not be built upon thee."
(ibid.)

To Augustine, this made Peter somewhat less than an infallible teacher, without his fellow bishops and all the faithful by his side. It is this statement by Augustine which Pope
Hadrian VI (1522-25) had in mind when he declared:

"A Pope may err alone, not only in his personal, but official capacity."

In still another letter Augustine quotes Cyprian, with whom he is in full agreement:

"For neither did Peter whom the Lord chose... when Paul afterwards disputed with him... claim or assume anything and arrogantly to himself, so as to say that he held a primacy
and should rather be obeyed by newcomers..."

Finally, Augustine concludes, near the end of his earthly life, with these words on the "Rock of the Church":

"Christ said to Peter... I will build thee upon Myself, I will not be built upon thee. Those who wished to be built among men said, 'I am of Paul, I am of Apollos, I am of
Cephas' - however, those who did not wish to be built upon Peter but upon the Rock say, I am of Jesus Christ." (Retractions, 13th Sermon)

Dear Orthoman and Orthodox Catholic,
geez, did you have to overkill the whole cannon thing? Yes, these cannons are flawed and a product of years of Latinization that is only in the last 30yrs. or so slowly begun to break down. We say that we are in communion with Rome and not under Rome because we believe it and we first must believe it before we can actualize it. Furthermore, those cannons were established in such a way as is contrary to the eastern christian's understanding about how cannons are formed. We might in fact argue that they don't apply to us because we didn't have adequate representation or in a challege to the right of the pope to convene an eccumenical counsel. Only an emperor can do this traditionally. The ecclesiology that let to the establishment of those cannons traces its roots back to the middle ages where there was little distinction between church and state. The pope was the unifying element in a war torn western Europe. However, in understanding the historical development of the papal doctrine of infalability and his supreme leadership over the entire church, we can also understand how this could never apply to us as eastern christians and that it is totally contradicting to many of the documents of reunification; see Breast, Florence, Lions, Uzhorod, etc. The oppression of the autonomous functioning of our churches was without precedent and in violation of unification accords. In seeking to preserve our Orthodoxy, we cannot in good conscience accept such cannons unconditionally.

Athanasius