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And all this time I thought that a Latinophrone was a new thrill ride brought up to WYD by our Hispanic friends!
Silouan

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DTBrown:
[QB]Orthoman,

I praise God for the ministry of the Successor of St Peter!


Just because Peter may be "The Rock" does not justify the doctrine of Papal Infallibility or the medieval development of a monarchical Papacy. That is what the Orthodox have always reminded the West. They had no problem with the Pope as Successor of Peter and to give to his successor, Primacy of Honor but not this universal jurisdiction.

If the pope excercises "universal jurisdiction" then how come Byzantine Catholic Churches have priests who are married? And we have our own laws? Our own theology (Orthodox theology). And ETC ETC. SO obviously the pope doesn't have an "universal jurisdiction" as the Orthodox claim. I think it's all FEAR that the Orthodox have for the Catholic Church, FEAR which is ruled by the devil...so the Orthodox is allowing FEAR (the devil) to not want to be one with the Catholic Church.

Also...infallibility...oh my gosh here go again with the misunderstanding of what it means...it is not limited to the Pope, but it's also extended to bishops who are in union with him and the councils which proclaims such things infallibly.

The Pope is the representative of all the infallible bishops in union with each other, so thus the Pope have the special chrism of infallibility. May God help him.

I think the Orthodox WANT to be narrow-minded or not look at the truth...which is true...they KNOW it's true about the pope. There are so many Orthodox priests that are now Catholic priests (Byzantine), so obviously they didn't have any problem with papacy ONLY if they understood it in a correct LIGHT. So if the Orthodox would only understand papacy in ways that we do, then they wouldn't have any problems with it 100%.

How's that for a challenge? Do you want to check into it? The POPE himself challenged the Orthodox to HELP him re-define papacy. But NO ONE has EVER done it YET! So, I wish the Orthodox would hush up about papacy if they don't want to help the Pope on that.

I really truly love the Orthodox Church, but I'm very frustrated!!!

God grant me the patience...NOW!

I think Orthodox hierarchs such as Bishop Kallistos have offered and have gone a long way in ecumenical relations with the Catholic Church to try to define a Papacy that is more consistent with the first 1000 years of Christianity.
I have to disagree with you about Infallibility as Vatican I did state that the Pope had this "charism" independent of Councils and of all bishops. It was the "Roman Pontiff" himself who had this charism based on his authority.
I agree with you that some Orthodox do go a bit too far in emphasising where we differ with Catholicism and I do have a problem with some of the convert element in the Orthodox Church that shout "Uniate" at the drop of a hat. And when I hear that, I defend the Eastern Catholics from such unhistorical and offensive statements. But the issue of the Papal Cliams is the MAIN thing that seperates us and it is a complicated issue and not something that can just be "got over" but has to be seriously looked at. The whole heritage of 1870 has be reexamined.

Brian

Even the current Pontiff, from his own lips, has expressed the need to "re-examine the nature of the Papacy and the place of the successor of Peter in relation to the communion of Churches". Also we have discussed the opinions of the noted Orthodox scholars Alexander Schmemann, John Meyendorff, and Nikolai Afanasiev on the need for a primacy previously in other threads.

[ 07-25-2002: Message edited by: Diak ]

Is Latinrophone like the Bat Phone?

The issue about the Petrine ministry will continue to come down to this, namely to the scriptural interpretation of Matthew 16 and John 21.

It is interesting that in John 21 our Lord is directing Peter to feed his lambs, no one else amongst the Twelve. It is also interesting that Peter's name was changed to Petros and that in Matthew 16 again the discourse of our Lord is directed to the person of Peter, who had coincidently had his name changed to "rock" well before this event.

Considered seriatim.

I think it's all FEAR that the Orthodox have for the Catholic Church, FEAR which is ruled by the devil...so the Orthodox is allowing FEAR (the devil) to not want to be one with the Catholic Church.

I'll agree with this to a large extent. However, the post-Vatican II abuses surely must give pause to many, many Orthodox when they consider union with Rome - at least the Orthodox I've talked to.

I think the Orthodox WANT to be narrow-minded or not look at the truth...

If the Indiana List is any indication of the current state of Orthodox thought, this is right on the money. One wonders if some of the people who post to that list ever adverted to Christ's command "Love one another as I have loved you."

The POPE himself challenged the Orthodox to HELP him re-define papacy. But NO ONE has EVER done it YET! So, I wish the Orthodox would hush up about papacy if they don't want to help the Pope on that.

Mr. Dundas is 100% on target with this. Ut Unum Sint has been on the table for seven years, and I have yet to hear one Orthodox primate (Metropolitan or Patriarch) take His Holiness up on the challenge. (I haven't heard a reaction from the Oriental Orthodox or the Assyrians either, but they don't make as much noise about the Papacy as the Eastern Orthodox do).

As a matter of fraternal correction, given the existence of Ut Unum Sint, I invite my Eastern Orthodox brethren to put up or shut up.

I really truly love the Orthodox Church, but I'm very frustrated!!!

Same here. I've had very positive contacts with Eastern Orthodox, even when we have disagreed, but there's a bullheadedness that tends toward the uncharitable.

Hey, I even went and prayed Vespers with them last Saturday night - a first! (for those of you into jurisdictionalism, it was with the Bulgarian Orthodox).

[ 07-25-2002: Message edited by: NDHoosier ]

Orthoman wrote:


I just went to the Canon Law website. The reason why they ask about "Organization" is not because they want to keep the volume secretive and only available to approved sources. It's because they give discounts to approved "organizations."

I put in "Joe's Bar" for my "organization" and had no problem. Note there is a minimum order with the Canon Law Society.

Why don't you just call them to order it? Their phone number is 301-362-8197. I'm sure you'll find there is nothing sinister about ordering the Code of Canons for the Eastern Churches.

As to your reply with quotes that somehow erase what the Menaion says about St Peter...I will write more about that later.

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

[ 07-25-2002: Message edited by: DTBrown ]

Dear Athanasius,

I really didn't say anything about canon law at all!

I don't even know what it is!

Is it a set of military rules governing how a team of soldiers are to load and fire artillery?

Is it a body of regulations that uses high-handed techniques to bulldoze government policy over the heads of citizens?

I've been an Orthodox Catholic all my life and I've never heard of canon law!



Alex

Dear Friends,

I've only said that when it comes to being "in union with" and "underneath" Rome, we Eastern Catholics are both.

Legally and in the eyes of Rome we are, even though we may resist the idea that we are "underneath" Rome today.

It is like when we Ukies call ourselves a Patriarchate, (and we deserve one - some of our parishes are larger than a number of Eastern Catholic Patriarchates ), but Rome doesn't recognize that we are.

And that means that the world doesn't recognize us as such.

The same is when we call ourselves Catholics who are in union with Rome, suggesting that our Particular Churches are on an even keel with the Roman Patriarchate.

And reporters who know how Rome is run find that very hard to believe.

Alex

Brian:

For the nth time, may I add to the Catholic Church's understanding of Papal Infallibility:

1. Infallibility was granted by Christ to His
Church;

2. The Church has 3 organs through which She
exercises the charism of Infallibility:

i. Through Ecumenical Councils;
ii. Through the Pope in union with the
bishops of the world; and
iii. Through the Pope, singly and
in his individual capacity.

Vatican I defined the third organ, Papal Infalliblity, careful to circumscribed the exercised thereof with clear parameters.

Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam!

[ 07-25-2002: Message edited by: Amado Guerrero ]

Dear Amado,

When I'll be at the Martyrs' Shrine tomorrow, the AMDG symbol will be every where.

I can't wait . . . hee-hee!

Alex

Dear Alex:

Thanks for ably representing us all here in this Forum.

Being the largest among the Easterns in the Dominion, the Ukrainian Church (both Catholic and Orthodox) must be having a ball!

(I heard that the Orthodox youth were in numbers at the Paris and Rome WYDs; ditto in Manila--1995.
Also, an Orthodox hierarch was in the former two events!)

AmdG

Dear Amado,

Well, there's Nik and some others who will also be taking care of "Byz-ness" at WYD!

This all does remind me of the Way of the Pilgrim and the spirituality of the Jesus Prayer.

I think the Orthodox have a better sense of what "pilgrimage" really is in terms of the "Podvig" and all that.

The Catholic Youth pilgrims are learning that the spiritual life also involves some physical discomfort and struggle!

What I love seeing is how secular Toronto is remaining distinctly and respectfully quiet, full of admiration and wondering why we can't have good young people like this all the time, in our families and our society?

Alex