www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Ethics Question-Emergency Contraception

John,

with all due respect, ISTM the Bishops' misconceptions regarding conception stems from the ...misconceived information provided to them from the experts (read "medical profession") as to how and when a woman's reproductive cycle operates.

Anhelyna, you wrote, "few women can pinpoint ovulation." I am married to one who can, and after seven pregancies and six children, I daresay she can. Even her ob-gyn admits my wife "knows" more about her prenancy than the ob-gyn could tell my wife.

We practice periodoc abstinence, but sometimes we are forced to observe the "barrier method", i.e., one or more of the children happen to find their way between us in our bed.

JM

>>>I just read the fact sheet you provided and I can honestly say that the bishops are full of ...uhh... misconceptions...
But the thing I find most fascinating is that the bishops allow it at all.<<<


Sorry, but I don't see it as misconception. They always seem to be guided by someone else giving them 'wrong information'

I think the confusing wording has more to do with Medicare/Medicaid ie GOVERNMENT funding that is necessary for Catholic and/or any hospitals to run, especially in inner cities. The Abortion Agenda still hangs like an axe over their heads.

Sam

John

Anhelyna, you wrote, "few women can pinpoint ovulation." I am married to one who can, and after seven pregancies and six children, I daresay she can. Even her ob-gyn admits my wife "knows" more about her prenancy than the ob-gyn could tell my wife.

Note I did say few - yes quite a fair number can - and this is obviously helpful - I loved it when the client could identify ovulation - it made life so much easier for all.

We practice periodoc abstinence, but sometimes we are forced to observe the "barrier method", i.e., one or more of the children happen to find their way between us in our bed.

I do remember a Franciscan nun who served in Korea for many years saying that the best barrier method she knew was the Korean Mother-in-law - she used to share the bed too
Anhelyna

Our Lady's slave of love<<I do remember a Franciscan nun who served in Korea for many years saying that the best barrier method she knew was the Korean Mother-in-law - she used to share the bed too>>

Oh, yukh!!! <puking>

OrthodoxEast

Hate to say it - But Sr whatsit said it was foolproof and perfectly normal. It was the Mothers in law who did the Family Planning - if they said that the offspring had had enough children that was it !

Mind the Nuns did teach Billings too - and that was appreciated.

What a topic of conversation today - makes a change from some of the others of recent note.

Everyone;

The thing I find most fascinating by this decision is the "moral relativity" it allows. In essence, the appropriateness of the contraception is determined by the attitude of the woman/victim. A procedure that would be unacceptable if the sexual encounter was consensual is acceptable if the encounter is unwelcomed or forced.

To me, this is profoundly different than the principle of "double effect." Let me explain.

In the 1930's, Pope Pius XI was approached with a moral dilemma. A terminally ill person is in extreme pain. A therapist has morphine available that can alleviate the pain, but if used aggressively, can inadvertently cause respiratory depression and thus accelerate the demise of the person.

Pope Pius answered with the above mentioned principle. He noted that the motivation for the morphine, alleviation of pain, was a noble and morally very appropriate one. The demise was inadevertent and unintended. Therefore, the moral high ground is to provide for the person's comfort; his demise, since it is unintended, is morally neutral.

One can use the same argument for a pregnant woman who has cancer of the uterus. A hysterectomy in this sense is life-saving, the death of the fetus is an unintended consequence, and therefore morally neutral.

In the situation of the rape victim, the contraception is the intent, and is morally acceptable because it is a consequence of a morally reprehensible act. This seems to be new ground and can have wide ramifications.

Cannot one argue for the death penalty? The death of the criminal is the intent and is morally acceptable because it too is a consequence of a morally reprehensible act.

Is the war against the Iraqis morally justifiable because it means to punish a morally reprehensible regime?

The ripple-effect seems endless.

John

I should note that my own personal beliefs are apparently aligned with the New York bishops. It seems to me that there is only one adequate explanation that exonerates this new teaching. It also places them more closely aligned to the Orthodox teaching on this subject.

I believe that life most appopriately begins with implantation. This is my argument.

Mankind was created for union. Union with our Creator, AND union with each other. We cannot achieve Union with God by exclusion of the other. We cannot achieve salvation of our own accord. Until the embryo implants, it is alone. It relates only to itself and to no other. Left to its own initiative, it will soon die. But with implantation, it establishes the consummate intimate relationship, that between child and mother. It has achieved union: personal, physiologic, symbiotic.

Can one be a person by himself/herself? Or are we only persons when we relate to another (or others?)

(Speaking for myself and not for the church,)

John

The good "Angela of Glasgow" clarifies the situation for me. Could you give us some information on the "Billings" method and what it entails? (In the U.S., 'billings' usually means something quite different!!)

I am also concerned that in cases of rape, there is also the possiblity of transmission of STDs, including the Papiloma Virus HPV (a known carcinogen) or Chlamydia (known to produce sterility when untreated) - and both of these are on the upswing in certain areas in the US. Could the treaments for these potential diseases also be abortifacient? And the conundrum deepens.....

Blessings!

Dr. John,

The Billings method is one of the "brand name" approaches to tracking fertility, approved for use in NFP, etc. Billings is one of the "sympto-thermal" methods, tracking basal body temperature and cervical mucus.

Treatment for STDs with antibiotics does not have abortifacient potential - as long as you don't use ABX contraindicated in pregnancy - and there really is good data if you care to look. (Not in the PDR, thank you!). Of course ABX treatment usually leads to a nasty yeast infection, so preventive measures should be taken for that. As for HPV, I do not believe there is any real treatment for that. There is some anecdotal evidence that taking relatively large doses of folic acid over time may serve to prevent HPV from causing precancerous cervical changes. As you probably know, HPV is somewhere between endemic and epidemic in the population.

ISTM that when ya come down to it, the good Bishops have taken the view that emergency contraceptives are acceptable as long as there's pretty well no chance that the woman was fertile at the time of the assault. In which case it wouldn't much matter if they provided contraceptives or peanut M&Ms.

Of course, most women in this day & age really don't have a clue when they ovulate. In fact it's a STUNNING fact that an awful lot of ladies dealing with apparent infertility have never charted their cycles at all - and some are put on powerful fertility regimens by docs who don't ask them to chart either! That's insane.

Oh well, I guess a little daily pill is the "modern" approach for most. Me, I think the modern approach is a digital thermometer.


Cheerz,

Sharon

I'll add/change a wee bittie of what Sharon has said as regards Billings method.

Over here Billings is taught as observation of cervical mucous only. Sympto Thermal goes beyong even a belt and braces system and some authorities consider the full Sympto Thermal Method as somewhat over the top and possibly too invasive with the attendant risk of ascending infection.

And yes - Sharon - we found it absolutely stunning how often by teaching Billings we lost a client - as she was no longer infertile - much to her joy !! As a result infertility treatment was not required. Fortunately one of the Consultants here used us as a first line of treatment - cos he knew it worked !

Angel of Glasgow, my guardian dear,

Personally I'm of the school that believes that "the more data points the better" as well as that lotsa ladies really don't have reliably discernable CM all the time. If you throw basal temp into the mix (or throw CM into the mix with BBT) you have a better complete pic. It's not exactly an onerous thing - maybe 60 seconds a day - 5 minutes if you have to search for a pen You can download free Excel spreadsheets that make charting either or both a snap.

I'm puzzled at how a full sympto-thermal approach would increase the risk of infection, assuming ordinary hygiene???? Enlighten me??

Have to laugh about your consultant - wish we had more like him. It seems stunningly obvious that before you go manipulating a system it makes sense to see how it works in the first place....

Cheers,

Sharon

Sharon,
<<Personally I'm of the school that believes that "the more data points the better" as well as that lotsa ladies really don't have reliably discernable CM all the time. If you throw basal temp into the mix (or throw CM into the mix with BBT) you have a better complete pic. It's not exactly an onerous thing - maybe 60 seconds a day - 5 minutes if you have to search for a pen You can download free Excel spreadsheets that make charting either or both a snap.>>

Ah yes - I had a friend who kept his local Pharmacist in luxury with the number of replacement thermometers that they had to buy. John shook it - she used it - the problem was he didn't have his glasses on and kept hitting the bedside table !

<<I'm puzzled at how a full sympto-thermal approach would increase the risk of infection, assuming ordinary hygiene???? Enlighten me??>>

Cervical palpation for tilt - messes up secretions and unless you are very careful can be risky. Not approved of by John and Lynn Billings

<<Have to laugh about your consultant - wish we had more like him. It seems stunningly obvious that before you go manipulating a system it makes sense to see how it works in the first place....>>

Well you see he helped train us and he had been trained by the Billings too and had worked in Australia

Oh those were the days.

Anhelyna

Ahhhh! Things become clear.

Don't know too many who go for the full cervical position check. Most I know just observe output, LOL.

As for them thar thermometers, I do dimly recall some in the vague and distant past which needed shaking. I haven't owned one for YEARS. What caused me to replace several of the cheap, electronic digital ones I use was the fact that my then-toddler discovered that the probe end fit PERFECTLY into the alan-wrench holes in the screws that hold my nightstand together. And they were deep enough that the tip would then break off when the aforementioned toddler further manipulated it. Doesn't work very well after that...

So are inexpensive digital electronic thermometers uncommon in Glasgow? You can pick 'em up practically anywhere over here.
Cheap.
Link to example of commonly available one:

http://www.bd.com/thermometers/

Two advantages for the sleepy NFP crowd (MEEEEEEEEEEEE!) : Audible signal (which wakes you out of the doze) when temp fully registers, and it remembers the last temp taken, so if you really CAN'T see it without your glasses, or if you don't remember, just push the button and there it is.

Cheers,

Sharon

John,

If attitude is the factor in determining if contraception is acceptable, could there conceivably be a number of wives who would claim EC because their husbands' advances were unwelcomed or perhaps even forced?

JM

Sharon
I haven't laughed so much in quite a while - I have this wonderful pic of a toddler exploring - reminds me of my nephew when 18 months old - his parents woke up to find him hanging pictures round the walls of their bedroom - the holes being at his height of course and a laaaarge hammer in his hands . By that stage he was starting on the fourth wall !

Oh I'm out of it now - but as digi thermometers came in we could not get low reading ones easily.

Kids - who'd have 'em -- no everyone don't answer that one - we all know the answer.

OK back on topic - sorry for the diversion folks

Anhelyna