www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Alex: purgatory in Bible, E & W fathers

Dear Alex,

I'm calling you out on your statement (from the Toll Houses topic):

"Purgatory" is nowhere mentioned in the Scriptures and it is foreign to the early Church Fathers, East and West.

Sacred Scripture does in fact teach us about a post-mortem cleansing "fire" for the saved. St Paul teaches us that some are saved "through fire." (1 Cor 3:15). The Greek that St Paul uses is "dia puros," from which "PURgatory" comes.

The patristic tradition of the East and West (even before the 5th century) testifies to purgatorial fire for the saved.

Eastern:

"When he has quitted his body and the difference between virtue and vice is known he cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested. That same fire in others will cancel the corruption of matter, and the propensity to evil."
Gregory of Nyssa,Sermon on the Dead,PG 13:445,448(ante A.D. 394)

It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials;for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature,but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble.It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our trangressions and then returns to us the rewardof our great works."
Origen,Homilies on Jeremias,PG 13:445,448(A.D. 244)

Western:

"If the baptized person fufils the obligations demanded of a Christian,he does well. If he does not--provided he keeps the faith,without which he would perish forever--no matter in what sin or impurity remains,he will be saved,as it were, by fire.
Augustine,Faith and Works,1:1(A.D. 413)

It is a matter that may be inquired into, and either ascertained or left doubtful, whether some believers shall pass through a kind of purgatorial fire.
Augustine,Enchiridion,69(A.D. 421),in NPNF1,III:260

"Each one will be presented to the Judge exactly as he was when he departed this life. Yet, there must be a cleansing fire before judgement,because of some minor faults that may remain to be purged away.
Gregory the Great,Dialogues,4:39(A.D. 594)

So there you have it. Purgatorial fire is not a late Latinization. It is rooted in Sacred Scripture and testified by both the Eastern and Western Fathers. May their prayers, by the grace of Jesus Christ, deliver us to the heavenly courts of comfort and worship.

yours in Christ,
Marshall

Dear Marshall,

Please enlighten us as to how one interprets Paul's statement to refer to a purgation post mortem. I'm very curious.

And while you are doing that, would you please interpret for us the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. What does it imply regarding purgation and purgatory?

With love in Christ.

Marshall,

While I'm sure our friend Alex will respond in his normal, exhaustive way, I do believe that he never said that there is no such thing as a "purgatorial fire", to use your term. It is the place called Purgatory that he insists is a later Latin invention. All the citations you gave refer to a purifying fire, not to an actual place or plane of existence that the word "Purgatory" calls to mind.

In Christ,
mikey.

Dear Marshall,

Good for you! Excellent!

I used to use the reference by St Paul to prove to my Protestant friends about purgatory all the time.

However, that reference is so vague that we really can't do very much with it - so it is best to leave it alone.

Our dearest friend, RayK, has referenced the way the Old Testament refers to cleansing fire etc.

The fact is that the Old Testament doesn't distinguish between what we today call "hell" and what we would also call "purgatory." They are one and the same place. While such references are good to show "purgatorial fire," they don't do very much for the eternity of hell.

What is clear from the three patristic quotes you give is that the cleansing experience is one that is part and parcel of the ascent to full union with God in heaven.

The Eastern Church has always believed that and yet has rejected the notion of "Purgatory" as a place/state - whatever you wish to call it.

The Holy Father's recent statements on this shows he is himself closer to the overall Eastern tradition.

Gregory of Nyssa also expressed a number of views that BOTH East and West would find theologically questionable - his view of purgatorial fire came directly from the pagan Greek tradition.

This is why, in the East, Gregory is called "Blessed Gregory" and not "Saint."

Also, the notion of "fire" expressed by the Latins at Florence was too realistic for the Greeks, and those Greeks who signed the Council of Florence were not obligated to accept "purgatorial fire." Again, Bl. Gregory is not representative of the Eastern tradition due to the pagan elements in some of his teachings, and not only when it came to eschatology.

We do not know what the nature of that cleansing is. It cannot be a literal "fire." Reading some commentary by Thomas More and others, one gets the impression that purgatory is worse than hell in some respects.

But then it is regarded truly as a place and I just don't understand why some Western Christians deny that the West considers Purgatory as a "place" the recent comments by His Holiness notwithstanding.

What is the devotion to the Holy Souls in Purgatory? If they are in a state, is this not an eschatological place, albeit not in a geographical sense?

This is a far cry from even the dynamic Western Patristic view of cleansing on the way to Heaven, cleansing from the spiritual remains of sinfulness that we all have, and that the prayers of others can help us overcome?

And what of the Patristic view of the ongoing assistance to us of the prayers of others EVEN when we are near the throne of God? Have a look at the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom after the Consecration.

There you will see that we pray FOR the Mother of God and the Saints who are already in Heaven!

The fact that His Holiness has declared purgatory to be a state and not a place does not mean that other popes or Western theologians have not considered it to be such before.

His Holiness is also teaching that Original Sin is nothing other than death and the other effects of Adam's personal sin - and is NOT the transmission of Adam's personal sin onto our souls.

That teaching is different from what other Catholic popes and theologians have taught from within the perspective of Augustinian notions of the inherited GUILT of Original Sin.

Purgatorial cleansing and Original Sin have ALWAYS been taught by the Church of Christ, East, West, North, South.

The East has disagreed with specific RC interpretations of these and other doctrines.

Perhaps the East has indeed been wrong about how the RC's have taught these doctrines.

Happily, then, His Holiness Pope John Paul II has finally cleared it all up for all of us!

Alex

Dear Marshall,

If we try to be consistent in our scriptural interpretations, as the fathers insist, then we look into other Pauline references to fire in order to better understand the one that you raised. Or as one of my professors used to say, "If you want to understand scripture, read the next line."

The ref. to I Cor 3:15 is clearly soteriological and about works that we do in this life, building upon the foundation laid by Christ. The very next line is verse 16; "Do you (plural) not know that you (plural) are the temple of God, and that the spirit of God dwells in you (plural)?"

This is telling us that the spirit [or fire] will dwell in us (plural)[i.e. THE CHURCH], thus some of us (as persons) will be saved by it.

This indwelling may not be very pleasant for most of us since we are such great sinners, but it is still good for us and will save us if we accept it. So some will be saved by this fire. The fire is what we go through in this life in the battle against our sins.

I don't agree that the Eastern tradition has taught purgation by fire after death. Bulgakov went so far as to suggest purgation after death (not purgatory) and many wanted to burn him because of his suggestion (I rather fitting penalty if one is into such things). Origin was on the same path in his universal salvation hypothesis. His teaching was condemned (after later abuses by some of his followers).

So then, in the parable of "the Rich Man and Lazarus" we find that those in the burning torment experienced by the rich man may never pass over the chasm to join those, such as Lazarus, in the bosom of Abraham. After death there are only Heaven and Hell. As they say, "get used to it."

In Christ.

Dear Andrew,

You'll turn us all into true believers yet!

Alex

How do the Eastern Churches not accept the validity of the Western notion?

Of course, they have every right not to, since, as far as doctrine goes, once again, the only things we know for cerain about Purgatory/Toll Houses/Final Theosis is,

a) (Most) souls are purified before the enter Heaven, if they have attained salvation.

b) Prayers are efficacious for these souls, but in what ways we do not know.

This is all we know for sure. Anything beyond this is purely speculation, even if rooted in Tradition.

ChristTeen287

Dear Alex,

Fair enough. I apologize if my tone sounded at your throat. After reading it again, it does sound edgy.

Nevertheless, the West has always held that purgation/purgatory is something that happens to the immaterial soul. Thus, literal fire is not in view. Rather, I have always understood the fire of "purgatory" to be the very presence of God, for "our God is a consuming fire."

When we die in a state of grace, we enter into the presence of God and His flames of love lick us until we fully accept His love and fully and finally repent of all our sins.

Coming to the realization that I have deeply wounded my wife is much worse than any corporal fire. I assume that our purification after death will be the fully existential experience of repentance that yields from seeing our sin in God's light. In a nutshell, I think this is what both East and West are expressing when they pray to assist the faithful departed.

Personally, I find the idea of "spacial purgatory" and "toll houses" equally ridiculous. And no offense to our Byzantines, but is it truly consistent for a loving God to allow His redeemed and adopted children (the saved) to be tormented by demons in little shacks of terror?

Could someone provide some actual liturgical texts about "toll houses" so that we can see a true descriptioni of them?

yours in Christ,
Marshall

Dear Marshall,

Seraphim Rose wrote at length on the toll-houses and brought in liturgical examples - I wish I hadn't lent his book out!

Happily, I have a good memory (good enough to remember what Pope Leo II said of his predecessor, Pope Honorius on Monothelism and what the sixth Council said as well ).

Basically, it goes like this. There are a number of "aerial toll-houses" that are not shacks, but they represent vices. Two angels guide us through them, defending us, how we practiced their corresponding virtues etc.

(Yes, it does sound as if purgatory is for wimps by comparison ).

The evil spirits are in the air, the place between earth and heaven.

I personally know they are there, if you like, I can let you know how I know from experience.

But I wouldn't want MORE people here to think I'm off my rocker!

The icon of the Dormition of the Mother of God has to do with the toll-houses as well.

According to tradition, the Mother of God asked Her Son not to allow her to be subject to the toll-house experience.

And He answered her prayer . . .

In the icon, Christ Himself stands over her bier, holding His Mother in His Hands to protect her against the toll-houses etc.

The toll-houses have never been defined as dogma, and neither has the 40 day experience following death - but the liturgical prayers and traditions follow that pattern.

I have come across a Troparion to St Nicholas asking for his help against the toll-houses.

But Seraphim Rose's book is excellent.

Also, if purgatory is a state and not a place, what does this do to the Western devotion to the Holy Souls IN purgatory?

Unless the experience of the "state" is a prolonged one etc.

We pray for the dead constantly and have long and very meaningful prayers for the dead. I also pray to my dead relatives and friends.

What more do you want from my life?

Alex

Dear Alex,

I think you would agree that toll houses are not physical houses just as purgatory is not actually full of physical fire. Likewise, the holy souls "in purgatory" could be "there" in the same way in which holy souls are "in" toll houses or "pass through" toll houses.

Plus, you can be "in" a state without it being a place. The preposition "in" does not necessarily denote anything spacial or locative. For example, "I am _in_ love with my wife." A holy soul could be _in_ the state of purification. That is what is meant by being "in purgatory."

I find it amazing that Byzantines are objecting to the Western imagery of fire and spacial descriptions of purgatory, while they go so far as to tell us that there are toll houses and morever, they exist "in the air."

So Westerners are faulted for speaking in spacial metaphors and of "literal" fire but Easterners are lauded for their more sophisticated view of toll houses located in the air and that souls must "pass through."

If a soul can't be in a location called purgatory than he/she certainly can't pass through a toll house. Ultimately this only proves that both the East and the West are using metaphors that often come very close to being spacial, corporal, and literal. Why can't we just respect one another's imperfect descriptions of the particular judgment and the purifying trial that awaits us? There is obviously not a place called purgatory floating somewhere between Heaven and Hell, nor are their 22 toll houses floating up in the air somewhere. Each is an attempt to describe the soul's particular judgment, purification, and ascent to God.

love in Christ,
Marshall

Dear Marshall,

I don't know what djs wrote or whether he even wrote in response to me.

But IF he was writing to me, it could not have been all that good or nice, as he has deleted his post .

The aerial spirits are definitely where they are geographically.

Eastern Catholics don't argue that purgatory is a "place" where people are tortured etc. Some medieval imagery might suggest that, but that is not where the disagreement lies.

It is largely a disagreement over people's souls being assigned to heaven, hell or wherever BEFORE the Second Coming of Christ.

And also to the way in which purgatory is handled in terms of how temporal punishment due to sin is dealt with, indulgences etc.

But, again, the Pope has, I believe, cleared up a lot of misconceptions on BOTH sides.

You and our beloved Latin brother, John McAlpine, have discussed purgatory in a way that I, as an Eastern Catholic, would not find objectionable.

(What is the indulgence for half an hour's worth of reading of Sacred Scripture again? ).

Alex

I'm sorry, Alex, I know you have your hands full, but do you mind expanding on this point a little? It's very interesting to me, since in the Apacalypse of St. John God judges souls at the Second Coming/Judgment of All Souls, and it wouldn't make sense to re-judge.

ChristTeen287

Dear Brethern,
Here is a excerpt/quote from John Paul II pertaining to purgatory," The Holy Scriptures include the concept of the purifying fire. The Eastern Church adopted it because it was biblical, while not receiving the Catholic doctrine on purgatory. Besides the bull of Benedict XII from the fourteenth century,the mystical works of Saint John of the Cross offered me a very strong argument for purgatory".

Seems to me the Holy Father should have stated " Roman Catholic" not Catholic.

My Spiritual Brother Alex, I am eager to hear from you regarding aerial spirits which I also think exist.

Pokoj wejsc Chrystus,
james

Dear Brethren,

All this conjecture about fire or no fire to me is not the main point. As I said on another thread, many have attempted many various ways to explore this mystery and have explained it differently. Some spoke of fire, others did not. Yet the basic fact remains that all ancient Churches pray for those asleep in the Lord and believe that this prayer can help gain them forgiveness of sins.

Does anyone on this forum deny this basic truth? If so, we can look to our own Eastern liturgical prayers to see it clearly.

In Christ's Light,

Wm. Der-Ghazarian Wolfe