www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Maximos IV Saigh

Was Maximos IV Saigh really the Vlad the Impager when it came to the Latin Mass? Some really resent his efforts at VCII in destroying the Latin Mass for the West when was an Eastern Bishop. How much responsibility does Maximos bear in the destruction of the beautiful Latin Mass?

Here is how one poster put it on an RC forum:

"Having read his words (albeit translated into english) I'd say his intention was the destruction of everything distinctive about the West.

The prime example is his "suggestion" that Latin be completely stripped from the Western LITURGY! "We Orientals cannot understand how the faithful can be gathered together and made to pray in a language which they do not understand. The Latin language is dead but the Church is alive."

GEE, THANKS! Remind me to mock the iconostasis sometime and come up with some completely spurious reason for tearing it down.

Every citation I've seen from him was in some way an attack on something distinctive about the West, and the progressives at the Council rallied round him as a figurehead."

Is this true or was his role misunderstood? Was he destructive or was he a pawn?

Dan L

Dear Professor Dan,

With your permission, I wanted to respond here.

That quote is certainly taken out of context. The Eastern Patriarchs were very much against the Novus Ordo Mass.

The issue of Latin was not one that was brought up by them - but by Rome and the new liturgical theologians who were saying that Latin was falling flat on its face as an understandable language for evangelization etc.

The Eastern Patriarchs (Catholic AND Orthodox) suggested that Rome bring in English and national languages as a whole (without getting rid of Latin!) but NOT change the structure of the Tridentine Mass.

That is how I understand it to have happened - something a bishop or two have confirmed to me over the years.

Secondly, the iconostasis was once used in the Latin Church and in England it was called the "Rood Screen."

In the Sarum Rite or Usage, Communion was given to people as the priest stood under the Cross over the Royal Doors - to underscore that they were partaking of the Fruit of the Tree of Life.

Mother Angelica has also brought back the iconostasis or Rood Screen as I see on EWTN in the Franciscan Chapel and that beautiful cathedral where they have the Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament.

She knows her Western liturgical history!

Do you know enough Latin to tell that RC you mention off in a proper way?

Why are you hanging out with those characters?

Aren't the people here enough for your inner fulfillment and happiness?

Alex

Or maybe he was just a wise outsider who was offering well deserved constructive criticism.

Dear Moe,

The Patriarch or Dan?

Alex

Alex and Moe,

The fellow who wrote this comment seems to be a very honest straightforward RC who is really troubled by the loss of the Latin mass. He seems to be quite intelligent. Thank you for your comments and I will research further.

I go there to shed some light of the East, but my wattage isn't always adequate.

Dan L

I tried to take it in a positive light but I really wasn't sure who he meant either.

Dan L

The holy Patriarch of course, I have never seen Dan as being especially wise or offering well deserved nor constructive criticism. Most Roman Catholics I know, and I know thousands around the world, think that the changes in the Roman Rite were anything but destructive, rather they believe it made it easier for them to enter into and participate in the Sacred Mysteries.

The only ones I know of who are against the changes made are those who think they are better educated and more inspired than the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council and Post-Concilial theologians and liturgists. The changes were made for valid reasons and according to Church law and custom. Those who would deny the authority of the Church to change her Liturgy are nothing more than cafeteria Catholics.

Are you trying to be insulting and rude? Your post is totally lacking in any semblance of common courtesy to Dan and to Roman Catholics.

Dear Professor Dan,

FYI, I affirm everything Moe said of you - in the opposite, however!

As I understand it, the Novus Ordo Mass was not part of the Vatican II reforms - am I correct?

This happened later.

And, in fact, there is nothing saying that Rome cannot, if it so chose, return to the Tridentine Mass - am I correct?

Personally, I think that the unintended "modern" spirit that was ushered in by those Catholic theologians who interpreted Vatican II as they desired is what brought in the kind of cafeteria Catholicism that our brother, Moe, decries - and rightly.

On the other hand, Moe seems to want to go out of his way to get your goat - am I correct?

I know the feeling - djs just called my position on the Pascha date "weak."

Now that really hurt!

But, Dan, when people come after you, as they invariably do after us, we really know that we've said something truly remarkable! Am I correct?

And when you have Carole in your corner, Woe is Moe!

Alex

Alex, the position that the Western Paschal calculation violates the prescriptions of Nicea is not without weakness. Your tendency to present the case as though it were iron-clad, motivates me to comment, just to avoid leaving that false impression.

Moe,

During Holy week and you still are filled with such hatred. I do hope you find some help.

Curly

Thank you, kind sir.

I believe they came afterward. However, the contention this fellow made was that it was a direct result of Maximos' efforts in disparaging the Latin Mass. Being still fairly new at this and having most of my interest in the Early Church I thought I might consult those who knew more about it.

That is my understanding but I'm not sure.

Yes, perhaps so. I would say that this fellow who made the comment is certainly no cafeteria catholic. From his own testimony over the years he loves the Church, is very faithful, attends the Latin mass as often as possible as well as Novus Ordo but much prefers the Latin mass and is very dissapointed that the few Latin masses that continue to exist are of the Indult variety. I sympathize with him. If I were Roman Catholic I would go to the Latin mass as often as I could and would be forever encouraging its return as the standard form of the mass.

Yes. It doesn't seem to matter how solicitous I am of him either. I guess he enjoys it.

I believe so.

Correctomundo!

Dan L

Dear Professor Dan,

FYI, none of my Lenten devotions will suffer today as a result of my posting a bit here . . .

May God bless and keep you strong in His faith and vibrant in His Witness by the power of His Holy Spirit active in your person and life!

A good Holy Week and Happy Pascha to you,
With a deep spiritual bow before your high stature in the Life in Christ,

Alex

Dear djs,

And as for you, my friend, ditto!

Alex

I think this is the part where I blush and say, "Awww shucks" or something equally eloquent.

Dear Carole,

We love Roman Catholics, especially as protectors!

After all, Rome didn't get its empire by being wimpy, you know . . .

Alex