www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Maximos IV Saigh

Lawrence,

As a 58+ year old RC, I can tell you that I do understand and read Latin on a regular basis. However, I had four years of Latin in high school and have used it ever since (reading, not much writing).

You wrote: "I've spoken to so many RC's over the age of 50 that I've now come to the conclusion that claims of RC's inability to understand Latin are simply a myth...."

"Over the age of 50" - yes, people in the late 50s and early 60s used the good old St. Joseph`s Missal. The problem is that most RCs under the age of 50 do not have any real knowledge of Latin. I believe that`s unfortunate and not just for purposes of worship. Latin is the best foundation for learning the romance languages and it is exceedingly useful in understanding the meanings of many unfamiliar words.

Prior to the late 60s, the study of Latin was mandatory in many public schools, for it was rightly recognized as a useful tool for those going into careers in education, medicine, and law.

Coming from a multi-ethnic, multi-credal family, I have never heard any comments about Catholics not understanding the Mass. While I don`t doubt that such allegations have been made in the past, I simply have never heard such things.

Peace,

Charles

Dear Friends,

Well, I took five years of Latin and love delving into the Latin Vulgate!

In fact, as one Latin prof recently told me, there is no such thing as, for example, the "French" language.

The Gallican tongues died out long ago to be replaced by a Gallicanized version of Latin, according to him.

I'm still best friends with my high school Latin teacher (with whom I'm going to lunch next week).

FYI, the Orthodox Kyivan-Mohyla Academy taught Latin as its "lingua franca" until the 19th century.

My grandfather, an EC priest, actually spoke Latin fluently and was a Latin teacher. When he met my Latin teacher in high school and realized he couldn't carry on a conversation with him in Latin, he came away saying to me quietly, "What kind of a Latin teacher is that? A disgrace!"

Alex

Anton,

Glad you enjoyed it, my friend. I myself just enjoyed a slice of your sinfully delicious post-Lenten chocolate cake. It brought a smile to my face and an inch to my waist .

Lawrence,

Like Charles, I too am 58+ and read and understand Latin, having had the benefit, not necessarily appreciated at the time, of 4 years of Latin (to say nothing of Greek), under the tutelage of several good Fathers of the Society of Jesus, all now of blessed memory.

In Boston of that era, a hub of classical education, and a bastion of Catholicism, one could study Latin in high school, as an elective, at all but one of the myriad Catholic high schools - but the numbers who did so were few; one could also study it, as an elective, in a few select public schools - again, the numbers who did so were few. To the best of my recollection, it was a mandatory subject in only 3 Catholic high schools, 2 public schools, and a couple of secular private academies - even among that select group, only a few required 4 years. Yes, one can find Catholics, active or lapsed, of that time who can translate ecclesiastical Latin in small doses, but I seriously doubt they are abundant in numbers.

I think Catholics "understood" the Mass, but only in a general way. My recollection of "lectoring" - leading the recitation of responses for the short-lived "dialogue" Mass - in a lower middle class, but fairly white-collar, congregation - is of folks carefully trying to use the phonetic pronunciations on the booklets provided, but stumbling mightily once beyond the universally understood "et cum spiritu tuo". As I remember, getting past "Ad Deum Qui laetificat juventutum meam" was pretty daunting to many; myself, my non-serving altar boys in attendance, and the good Sisters of Saint Francis of Glen Riddle sometimes being the only audible voices. I'm less cconfident than my brother in believing any more understood it than could pronounce it.

Many years,

Neil

Originally posted by spdundas:
"... the ceiling to floor Iconostasis like in many Russian Churches, aren't "natural" or what the Church Fathers intended. They intend to show the faithful as they are able to...what's happening at the Altar area. ..."

I strongly disagree! In many ancient sources ... a letter of St. Basil the Great come to mind ... there are references to curtains which entirely hid the Altar and the Holy Mysteries. With the advent of the iconostasis, in Byzantine usage, only a single curtain has remained, behind the Royal Doors. In other eastern rites, there are more curtains in addition to, or in place of, the iconostasis.

Photius, Reader

I understand that. I was saying that I understood that it was not fully intended to block the view of the faithful ENTIRELY out of the Altar Area.

It's not original idea to have wall to ceiling iconostasis. Most early iconostasis were about 3 feet or so high. It was raised up so one can add more Icons or maybe have a bigger icon onto it.

Besides, I prefer to see Mama in the Altar area holding Her Son anyway.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

May G-d bless the Ecumenical Pontiff, John Paul the Pope of Rome.

Dear Photius, one thing that has always and immediately struck me most profoundly upon entering into a Byzantine church is precisely that, the full iconostasis as one sees in many Russian churches.

The ranks of angels, prophets, evangelists, apostles, and other holy ones are there before us, gathered around the Holy of Holies. It truly drives home to me the notion of "heaven on earth", of the iconic reality of our temple as the meeting place and our entry into the Kingdom.

Some of the excavations have shown that the original St. Peter's had a wall between the faithful and the altar. Not 3 feet high, but floor to ceiling.

If memory serves, I first learned that historical fact from a book of essays from the Ecumenical Society of the Blessed Virgin Mary. (Unfortunately I don't have the book, or I would quote it for you.)

I haven't seen too much about it online, but there's a mention of it on the CIN forum:

http://www.cin.org/archives/cineast/200307/0052.html