www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Can Western People Ever REALLY Convert to Orthodoxy/Eastern Christianity???

Can Western people ever REALLY convert COMPLETELY to Orthodoxy/Eastern Christianity???

This is a question that I've been asking myself lately after almost 30 years as an Eastern Christian and 25 years as an Orthodox priest. I'm just really wondering (out loud) if it is possible...and I'd like some 'input.' This article by Franklin Billerbeck is maybe a good place to start the discussion (he uses Orthodoxy as his example, but of course it can be easily applied to any Eastern Christian tradition):

Fusing Faith and Culture: The Orthodox (or Eastern Christian) Approach. Precisely because Orthodoxy claims to be catholic (universal), it is at once both the ultimate expression of one's ethnicity and the ultimate rejection of ethnicity. Because ethnicity is absorbed into the faith, the faith becomes the ultimate, God centered, expression of ethnicity. Because the faith ultimately transcends ethnicity and creates a deeper unity than any ethnic bond, the faith is also the ultimate rejection of ethnicity.

It works like this. Take the case of Russia. When missionaries went into Russia the entire nation ultimately became Orthodox. The entire culture became drenched in the Orthodox faith. All of life, its customs, its habits, its expressions became immersed in and an integral part of the Russian expression of the Orthodox faith. Yet the culture retained its unique characteristics�Russians did not have to give up being Russian to become Orthodox. The culture was absorbed into the faith and the faith permeated all aspects of the culture. Russian culture and ethnic identity was, like all things, made new in Christ Jesus. The uniqueness of the Russian culture was thus given its ultimate expression�it was made part of the Kingdom. Thus the Russian expression of Orthodoxy is and ought to be different than the Greek expression of the same faith. But the same faith unites Greeks and Russians into something more, namely, the body of Christ, the church.

Orthodoxy embraces and cherishes culture and cultural difference. Rather than cut off and isolate church as something alien to our everyday life, a box we fill on Sundays from 10:00�11:45, for the Orthodox, culture becomes a means of expressing and living our faith every day. Faith and culture are fused. As a result it becomes hard even to conceive of being Russian without being Orthodox, or being Greek without being Orthodox. And herein lies the problem.

Our culture has not yet been baptized into Orthodoxy. Thus we conceive of Greeks and Russians as Orthodox but they are different from us. We view their faith as something unique to their culture and not adaptable to ours. We view their faith as so cultural that we cannot readily conceive of it as being universal; we can't conceive of being Orthodox without also being Greek or Russian. Indeed, the same holds true for some Orthodox in America�thus they might ask you: Are you Greek? If you say No, but I'm Orthodox or No, but I want to learn about the Orthodox faith, you may startle them for a minute, but then they will likely accept you. After all, the Orthodox are very aware that people of various cultures are Orthodox and they are very accepting of cultural difference while valuing and preserving their own unique cultural identity. To an Orthodox it would seem unthinkable to ask you to deny your ethnicity to become Orthodox. After all, ethnic identity is simply part of being human. Thus when Ethiopians, for example, attend St. George's Greek Orthodox church in St. Paul, MN, they are not asked to give up their culture. They are accepted as Orthodox and their culture is valued as being part of who they are: fellow Orthodox Christians. Naturally the respect is mutual. Orthodoxy's ability to fuse culture and faith is a great strength but also, in a way, a great weakness, especially in America.

When immigrants came to the United States, they banded together; thus easing their transition into an alien America and preserving their culture and their faith. Many immigrants were delighted just to be in America. Their goal was to be accepted. Because of the link between culture and faith, they were careful to preserve both. What they failed to see was the golden opportunity to make America Orthodox. Rather than try and do missionary work and convert America, they tried to retain their faith and their culture as an isolated box of their existence, while simultaneously trying to be accepted by society at large, to be recognized as true Americans. That is changing.

An Emerging American Orthodoxy
As the Orthodox church here in the new world takes in many converts and as the generations become further removed from the old country, Orthodoxy in America is changing in two respects. First, it is becoming missionary minded. The goal is to convert America to Orthodoxy! The goal of some Antiochian Orthodox is to plant 500 new churches by the year 2000. Orthodox are becoming less concerned about being accepted as legitimate members of American society and more concerned with making American society Christian. Thus we seek to proclaim our faith and to critique and confront American culture. We stand, for example, unequivocally opposed to abortion (murder) on demand, to immoral sexual practices, to instant gratification as the driving force of life, abuse of various kinds, and environmental suicide (yes, environmental issues are theological issues). We affirm the dignity of human life, the centrality of the family, the need for work and sacrifice, and the equal but different roles of men and women. American culture has yet to be baptized into Orthodoxy. The mission of Orthodoxy in America is not unlike that of the our earlier mission to the ancient Roman world: win the people and the nation for Jesus Christ.

Second, what is gradually emerging is a uniquely American expression of Orthodoxy. We are very early into this process. But what is starting to happen is only natural. People of various ethnic groups born and raised in America are going to incorporate their own culture into their expression of the Orthodox faith. The faith will not change. The expression of that faith will become uniquely American, just as there is a uniquely Russian and a uniquely Greek expression of the Orthodox faith. Thus such things as, for example, pews and organs (largely unknown in the old country) may become a normal part of the American expression of Orthodoxy. American musical expressions may well find a place in the life of the church in much the same way that there is a distinct Greek chant and a distinct Russian chant. Such a change will come about very gradually�it will not be imposed from on high. Anglican converts to Orthodoxy have a wonderful opportunity to contribute to this process. Entire congregations can come over and preserve their unique identity and character. Indeed, because America is a melting pot, it seems likely that a variety of ethnicities will find continued expression within American Orthodoxy. Ultimately, the goal is to make America, with all of its various cultures, truly Orthodox so that our culture, our thinking, our expression is so united with the faith, that it is almost impossible to conceive of being American without being Orthodox.

Are the Orthodox ethnic? Yes, and both we converts and the native Orthodox are proud of our ethnicity. Our heritage is part of who we are.

What are YOUR thoughts about this subject?

Your poor brother in Christ,
+Fr. Gregory

Bless, Father Gregory,

I think the point is well taken that our cultural identity becomes so fused with Christianity that it is next to impossible to determine the boundaries between the two - in fact, they have long ceased to exist.

I wouldn't use the term "ethnicity" since this tends to imply a "subcultural" identity to that of the mainstream. Thus, one can be an American with a Ruthenian ethnicity etc.

Orthodoxy has yet to be fully fused with American culture, but it is on its way.

As for the "universal" and "particular" in Christianity, we become members of the "universal" Church precisely by our membership in the "particular" Church (as opposed to some sort of "dual membership"). Thus, we bring to "universal" membership our specific religious-cultural particularity.

The cupolas and Byzantine cultural expressions of Orthodoxy are also cultural expressions - from the time of the fusion of Christianity with the culture of Byzantium.

That is why Byzantine Christianity, even when stripped of its "ethnic" colouring, is still hardly "mainstream" with respect to North American culture.

It would take some real "cultural surgery" I suppose to make Orthodoxy a true expression of the North American mainstream, rather than an Eastern European Church that has been adapted to the Anglo-Conformity model here.

This is why I find the Administrator's model of Byzantine unity in North America "culturally unworkable."

Even if we could do it, we would still be an "ethnic Church" from the point of view of North Americans with our cupolas and other specifically Byzantine trappings.

Alex

Hi Alex!

Yes, we can agree to disagree on this.

But my overall point has been that, although the Slavs and Greeks were two entirely different cultures, Saints Cyril and Methodius and the early Slavic Christians were able to take Byzantine Christianity and re-present it to the Slavic culture in terms it could understand and embrace. I can just imagine some Greeks in Constantinople telling Saints Cyril and Methodius: �Come on, now, those Slavic peoples will have to become Greeks in order to become Christians since Greek culture and Christianity are so intertwined. Byzantine Christianity just isn�t for them.� But what did the Slavs do? They took the Byzantine-Greek form of Christianity and modified the nonessentials to speak to their own culture. They took round domes on church buildings and made them into onion shaped domes to shed the snow. They took Greek liturgical chant and modified it into something uniquely Slavic.

Our job as Byzantine Christians is to take our inheritance and re-present it to the North American culture in terms it can understand and embrace. We see the very beginnings of this in a very tiny example of the newer church buildings in the American southwest that are built not as copies of Slavic architecture but as temples incorporating the necessities of Byzantium in a manner that fits the southwestern climate. The job is difficult and will take generations. But we either embrace the task and work wholeheartedly at it, or watch as the remnants of our respective Slavic and Arabic ethnic Churches quickly disappear.

Alexi Krindatch, a Russian, has published the results of a study he did in the late 1990�s on the Hartford Institute for Religious Research website. I think his model is faulty in some respects, yet I think it offers a number of points for consideration. See �Research on Orthodox Religious Groups in the United States� [hirr.hartsem.edu] . [This study was discussed here on the Forum several years back. It is not the "end all" of this ongoing discussion, but something that is always worth considering.]

Admin

Dear Administrator,

Yes, if we don't all agree with you, then we will disappear off the face of the earth!

I agree with you then!

I want to hang around for a while longer yet!

(You must have been a big hit with the high school debating club! ).

Alex (whose motto now is "live and leave me alone! ")

Sometimes the arguments used for more conversion to Orthodoxy in America are comparing apples to oranges. It was a royal family/monarch who initiated conversion to Orthodoxy in Russia, not a president elected by the general public. The Russian culture was very different from ours today. Generally, we are talking about successes in the past with mostly primitve peoples, including the 18th century conversion of native peoples in Alaska, peoples who could often not read or write, had no printed media, higher learning institutions, etc. They were wise in other ways, of course, but the fact remains that a wealth of circumstances complicate such ambitions today. It will take more than the observed beauty of ceremonies to convert Americans. It will take a genuine longing for Christ. Witness and example can help waken that nowadays. For people to convert there must be a genuine desire for change that will reflect in their daily lives- a new way of life.

Dear Jim,

What you say is true about the monarchs bringing in Christianity and the Alaskans.

But only to a point.

Orthodox Christianity was more successful than other forms in Alaska precisely because it was so culturally adaptable - as it was in the time of Sts. Cyril and Methodius et al.

St Volodymyr ordered his people to accept Christianity -true.

But Christianity became part of the people later when, for example, the blessings of the Euchologion included two more books of agricultural blessings related to the people of Rus' way of life.

In a sense, this is analogous to the American situation.

Christianity is already a cultural factor in the U.S. with many pious American Protestant Christians etc.

It will take time for Orthodoxy to graft onto itself the American cultural experience.

Americans have to feel "American" as Eastern Christians before they can truly turn Eastwards.

Alex

Perhaps one small contribution from a convert may be useful. I will write more later but time is brief just now. If conversion of America is truly our goal and I pray that it is then we need some spiritual and intellectual bridges.

Three bridges brought me to Eastern Christianity.

First, and foremost is my thirst for holiness. I was initially converted to Christianity in a Protestant holiness camp meeting. People in that expression of Protestant Christianity, unlike the Calvinists, really do believe that God changes a person to become ever more like God. Perhaps it is these people who might be most open to the Orthodox message and spirituality.

Second, I grew up near the earth. I wasn't a farmer's son but we grew up in an agricultural community. I believe this background has always helped me understand the nuances of our Incarnational Religion. The Dome means something to me at a very viceral level.

Third, my graduate school education in the Fathers. This is not necessary but I knew about the Cappadocian Fathers and St. Athanasius long before my conversion. When I see my friends on our walls its like being at home.

Dan L

Dear Father Gregory,

I think that you forgot to say that this is from: Orthodoxy and Ethnicity
By Franklin Billerbeck

(I think it is important for us to know what thoughts are yours and what thoughts belong to another. )

****************************************************
My biggest problem with this article is this part:

I find this mentality totally unacceptable and offensive to our conservative Christian brethren, but MOST OF ALL to the Roman Catholics who share in the fullness of Apostolic faith..

I think that it is high time that any Orthodox prosletyzing cease...and that the Antiochians, most especially, cease their mentality of converting all of America to Orthodoxy! :rolleyes:

Yours in Christ,
Alice, who prefers to focus on respect of our brethren, and unity of East and West

P.S. None of the anger of my post is aimed at you, btw! You are a bresh of fresh air on the ecumenical front!

Alice,

I see the issue differently. The more evangelizing the better is what I say. It makes us all sharper and decreases the numbers of non believers.

Dan L

Dear Alice, I agree with you completely, as I think you know. And if you look back at the beginning of my post it does say this: "This article by Franklin Billerbeck is maybe a good place to start the discussion..." But actually my question is much deeper than his article goes...and really geared to not just 'Orthodoxy' but also to all ethnic ancient Churches in this country. The article has some things I liked and others that I definitely do NOT like...but my question I hope people will see is broader than Billerback's. I would like to examine the whole "Byzantine-Eastern-Oriental-Rites thing" and see what this has to say to other Americans...and how do they respond to it, other than, "Oh...that's such a quaint religion" etc. I'm REALLY wondering if most Western people ever really can COMPLETELY 'convert'?---I think I thought I had until last summer when I got this sudden desire to genuflect in a church in Spain...and then I had that "Aha-experience" and realized that I NEVER EVER really liked bows or prostrations...and feel, and have ALWAYS felt uncomfortable or 'incomplete' doing them? I know it's a little thing...but it started a whole series of "Aha-experiences" and they're still going on. Just pray that they lead somewhere good! It seems everywhere in Orthodoxy in this country, I've had to become first a Ukrainian, then five years later, a Byelorussian, and then a Greek...I have never been able or welcomed by anybody for being ME! Maybe I'm just over tired (because of all this 'changing identities' and stuff? Don't know yet, but I'll tell you...as one gets older, it gets harder to keep 're-inventing myself'...and besides, I kind'a miss not being able to be the French-Canadian kid that my mom and dad raised me as!

Well...now that I've got that all off my chest---I feel much better...thanks Alice for the session (you see, you've done it again!)

Love to you!

Your 'little brother' in Christ,
+Gregory, priestmonk---who finally has ONE place he can REALLY feel 'at home': HERE!

Dear Dan,

I believe that the best evangelization is love...not triumphalism, not prosletyzing.

I would like to see everyone be a believing, conservative Christian. Others I know seem like they would rather a person die a Buddhist, Hindu, or Muslim rather than see that person become a non-Orthodox (and they mean 'orthodox' with a capital 'O') Christian.

If I was of that persuasion, I would not be a participant on a Byzantine Catholic forum! *wink*

If I were of that persuasion, I would not have sent my daughter to a RC school nor would I have rejoiced that she managed, over the course of a year and a half to inspire her ex-boyfriend to 1. believe in God and look at life in a spiritual God centered way, and 2. become a practicing, believing, and Mass going Roman Catholic once again.

Yours in Christ, our Lord,
Alice

Dear Dan,

Excellent insights - thank you for sharing them!

However, I think what brought you "home" to the EC Church has to do with the elements of the Orthodox-Catholic faith and practice that are still present, in whatever form, within Protestantism.

As you know better than I, the Wesleys practiced a disciplined way of life aimed to foster holiness and they read the Fathers.

I'm not saying that the onion domes are totally foreign to American culture, but I think that most Americans would say that they are, on the face of it.

Alex

Dear Father Gregory,

Forgive my oversight as to the author's name, or perhaps, bad, middle-aged sight! LOL! :rolleyes:

I really do appreciate your post. It was open and honest.

I think some of the problem is that those who attend our ethnic churches, well tend to be--still somewhat culturally ethnic in their look, outlook, and mannerisms to some degree--even though they may be American born.
People like that often expect everyone else to be like them or to conform to be like them.

You have a wonderful, light hearted, people loving and humorous way that reminds me more of my Irish-American friends than any of my Greek friends. You also don't have coloring like the rest of us, LOL, (myself excluded ) Simply put, since I also like to laugh, I can tell you that although the Greeks tend to be fun loving as far as partying, they can be sourpusses as far as humor...The ethos seems to be that if you are religious you must be very serious--at ALL times! The great cultural divide again!

You have been yourself, and I think that is a very, very good thing-- and that we need MORE of that...but perhaps because of that, you have not felt totally welcome? If this theory has any merit, then my fellow Greek Orthodox are in the wrong--certainly NOT you!

Here is a cute story with a parallel theme:

A certain GO nun from Greece came to stay at the house of one of my fellow parishioners. She needed an operation. She had been in the Kansas City Hotel disaster of twenty some years ago, and was miraculously saved by a sainted elder of Mt. Athos who came to her in the mystical state of bi-location. Up to that point she was a seeker of Orthodoxy, and about as American blooded as they come. She didn't have an ounce of Mediterranean or Eastern European blood in her. (She may have had some Norwegian blood). She was a Harvard graduate and the cousin of a well known pop youth group of the time.

Suffice it to say, the miracle spoke to her, and she knew that she was called to the monastic life. She then joined a new monastery outside Athens, Greece started up by a youngish elder of Mt. Athos, and which drew many, many young educated girls of diverse cultures. The Abbess is the niece of one of the Mayors of Berlin, Germany--for instance!

Well, anyway, I was blessed to have sister seek me out because of the St. Nektarios book I translated. We became spiritual friends. Anyway, getting to the point of the story, this All American girl had affected the dour countenance and mannerism of traditional Greek Orthodox nuns. It was kind of hard to talk to her because she wouldn't smile or laugh. She was VEEEEERY serious, because THAT is what she thought she had to be! :rolleyes: The cultural divide again!

( for what it is worth, I got her to smile and laugh when her elder wasn't around, and she looked SO normal and SO American--it was much easier for ME to relate to her like that than the other way she felt she had to conform to!)

So, if this theory makes it any easier for you to understand why ethnic, ( ofcourse I can only speak for the Greeks), churches may have made you feel a little bit uncomfortable, then I have conveyed what I wanted. I never thought of you as anything (Russian/Greek/etc.) but Father Gregory, American priest!

Keep on being yourself... because that is who God made you!

Praying that you will find the place you can feel most spiritually 'at home' in....
(for me, it would definitely be *here*, but alas, this is only cyberspace )
Alice

Although I have not attended a Eastern Liturgy in the flesh yet, at least I can listen to them with my ears & heart via the internet, and quite joyfully have melded a Eastern/Western prayer rule.

I do my best to keep my Polish/Italian/Latin roots in the background, of course we do have them occasional outbursts .

I have been studying the Eastern Way for 2 years and still have only scratched the surface, and also feel that without the Eastern life preserver I found, I would have sank and really fallen away.

There is a need/purpose for both the East & West, they complete/compliment each other in my eyes and heart.

james

Alice,

I think we agree but use different words. I have rarely if ever seen an example of "prosletyzing". What you call winning with love I call "evangelism". Anyway, I'm very glad for the conversion however it came about.

Dan L