www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Can Western People Ever REALLY Convert to Orthodoxy/Eastern Christianity???

Father,

Likewise, I've many many coverts to Roman Catholicism who feel like they'll never really BE Roman Catholic... like it's not really in their blood or something -- and I think the Roman Catholics have done a pretty darn good job of adapting to the US.

It's also caused problems, because as ethnic populations begin to decrease, ethnic churches close. So St. Stanislaus Kostka (Polish) and St. Patrick (Irish) have to merge into Our Lord and Savior Parish or some such name. However, it doesn't change their Roman Catholicity. Plus, the Latins are lucky with the influx of new ethnicities, mainly Latin Americans, who add to and enrich the Church, but tend to join whatever parish is in the area, instead of start the Mexican parish or the Brazilian parish, as our ethnic forefathers once did.

As a Church of Apostolic Succession I would wish the Orthodox well in evangelizing to the unchurced.

The Latin Church in the US has gone too far, in my humble opinion, in becoming "American".

Almost all new churches are ugly lecture halls with an altar. Formerly ehtinic communities have faded away and we are left with old, beautiful cathedrals in our cities that are empty and closed.

Americans will adopt to and embrace what they want and find interesting. There is a role for all Apostolic Churches, Catholic and Orthodox, to evangelize and turn this nation away from the "culture of death".

I think we can do this by evangelization and by being true to our heritage, without being chauvinistic or triumphant. (This is aimed an NO particular group - I do not attempt to speak for Eastern Christianity - I'm Polish and Latin).

jmho

�But actually my question is much deeper . . .and . . . is broader than Billerback's. . . . I'm REALLY wondering if most Western people ever really can COMPLETELY 'convert'?---I think I thought I had until last summer when I got this sudden desire to genuflect in a church in Spain...and then I had that "Aha-experience" and realized that I NEVER EVER really liked bows or prostrations...and feel, and have ALWAYS felt uncomfortable or 'incomplete' doing them? I know it's a little thing...but it started a whole series of "Aha-experiences" and they're still going on. Just pray that they lead somewhere good! It seems everywhere in Orthodoxy in this country, I've had to become first a Ukrainian, then five years later, a Byelorussian, and then a Greek...I have never been able or welcomed by anybody for being ME! Maybe I'm just over tired (because of all this 'changing identities' and stuff? Don't know yet, but I'll tell you...as one gets older, it gets harder to keep 're-inventing myself'...and besides, I kind'a miss not being able to be the French-Canadian kid that my mom and dad raised me as!�


Fr. Gregory:

I think the analogy of how a child learns language might fit here. A linguist I studied under as an undergraduate told us that children learn language sounds in a certain order. The learning can give a trained linguist a clue as to where that child lived during the time he acquired the particular sounds. One of the people in my class had traveled around as part of a military family, moving about every two years. I, on the other hand, had grown up in the same place and learned all of the sounds I reproduced in pronunciation in that place. The professor was able to tell the other student where she had lived at each point in her 20 years of life: he picked up the deep South, California, New England, the Midwest, and some other places.

My point is that we pick up habits and mannerisms in both the sacred and secular places we have lived, just as we pick up language. These habits and mannerisms�these ways of looking at things and doing things--become part of us. We can no more hide them or shuck them off�like peeling an ear of corn�than we can change our skin. We can adopt new ways of speaking, thinking, and acting, but the older habits and patterns are still there, still part of us even when they are no longer used.

It seems to me that the aging process brings with it the examination of one�s own path, both spiritual and worldly. And these �aha experiences� are part of that self-examination. It seems to me to be a healthy thing and leads to a greater understanding of the �me� that God has created and that He takes so great a delight in. When I say that He has created each of us as a one-of-a-kind original, this greater, deeper understanding of who each of us is comes as a gift from Him as we gain more distance on the spiritual journey, coming closer to Him and to the Kingdom. It seems to me that this �aha experience� is a glimmer of the Divine Wisdom that He gifts us with if we are attentive. It seems to me to be something that makes us more valuable to ourselves and to others in His continued work of saving us all.

You�ll always be the �French Canadian kid� your parents raised, even if you are clothed as a Ukrainian, Byelorussian, or Greek. No matter what else you add to the unique person you are, you will always be who you are and who God created you to be. The additions can be a truly positive thing as it enriches and deepens the man you are, making you a greater treasure to God and to those to whom He sends you.

On the other hand, doubts about one�s path can be a poison that makes one afraid to act. A constant questioning of one�s particular path can have the same paralyzing effect as snake venom has on its victim. There are those who paralyze themselves with questioning about what they should have done, or would have done, or . . . This can lead to one being withdrawn and afraid to act, plagued with self-doubt about every act and unable to continue the journey. It reminds me of the definition of death someone once gave me. It was said that a dead man is one who cannot learn, grow, and change.

I believe that the positive part of this �aha experience� should be that you come to realize more deeply and more intimately that God has been with you at each and every stop of your spiritual journey. Your many expressions of reverence toward Him should help you realize that He is approachable in and through every culture and that He wants no barrier to come between Him and any of His beloved creatures.

Does this, perhaps, give a little focus to your query?

BOB

It's a very good thread to talk about...how we can solve the problem with Church crisis due to ethnicity (some parishes closing down...like the recent one in Florida).

My Orthodox friend once told me that people in the Orthodox (as well as BCC) need to stop worshipping nationality...but need to worship G-d who alone deserves all glory.

I find it difficult to accept when people say about a person being baptized.."You are now Greek"...rather than "You are now a Christian!"

We should look at Roman Catholic brethren as good example of not having ethnic problems...for example...there's a parish that has Irish/Celtic style..but have all kinds of people in there...not just the Irish...everyone's Catholic and welcome. Other parish in the same town...German/Gothic style...same thing...with all kinds of people..not just the Germans..all are welcome.

Why can't the Orthodox/BCC do that? Doesn't matter what style the Church is in...doesn't reflect on the members of parish..but can reflect on various cultures that the same Church can be found over there..(more universal Church feel).

If I had the money..I'd build a Church...with a Russian/Ukrainian exterior..with lots of gold domes..but inside...a Greek Style...a good mix...for all people.

I hope that we will just strip of our cultural identity and replace it with identity of "CHRISTIAN."

Now, let's go back to the point where Father Gregory was talking about whether or not the Americans can be Orthodox/BCC.

The answer is....it's very difficult!

I don't think it's because of ethnicity (although it can be part of it)...but mainly because of the mentality/"culture" of a Rite. The Byzantine Rite was created by and for the people in the region where Churches were developed at the time. So...Rite means Ritual...reflecting cultural idenity of people at the time...clothing...language...expression...and even mentality.

So the Byzantines are from Eastern and Northeastern countries...

Rites of a Church was developed based on the cultural/ethnicity of that region.

But we are still ONE Church...with many Rites. Different expressions of the same faith...different expression of the same theology (truth/faith).

That's why there are problems with theologies (not problems with theologies per se)...due to language...culture..and even POLITICS. For example...Immaculate Conception...Conception of St. Anne...saying that Mary is free from Sin...how or what is defined according to language/politics. So basically...it's not a problem of theology...but problem with language and politics...language barriers...politics reflecting on certain cultural mentalities.

Really...in reality...there's NO problem with Catholic and Orthodox theology...just language/poltics that smear it. It's like..why in the world are we still arguing about stuff like Immaculate Conception or Filoque or leaven bread or whatever! There's really NO problem! Why are we allowing language/politics get in the way?

So...I guess I drifted off a little again.

Let's go back to whether or not the Americans can be Orthodox. Well...America is truly a Western World..with strong Western mentality. IT really clashes with the Eastern mentality. So..it's extremely HARD for Americans to be Orthodox...because the mainstream country don't understand the Eastern mentality/spirituality.

It's truly challenging to grow here in this Western country whereas out in the East we can grow and thrive beyond our imaginations.

But that's who we are...Eastern Christians...with a special Eastern mentality coming from our Rite of a Church.

I'm an American, but I don't understand Western mentality/spirituality too well...perhaps maybe because of my Deafness? It's very true that the Deaf people DO have their own mentality/view on G-d that's different from hearing people. So my mentality seems to click well with the Eastern Church..plus it's very sensual Church..Icons, incense...touching...bowing...signs of crosses...etc...very ritualistic. SO my lacking of hearing causes me to use many other senses...and I utilize all my other senses in an Eastern Christian worship...I wear hearing aids...so I can hear the music...but not the same as hearing people.

So, therefore, to be American and Orthodox/BCC...it's challenging...but not impossible. Indeed.

That's why we've got to stick together...because we're there for each other...for support, etc. where we can't find in Roman Churches (with many sub-cultures such as Irish, German, etc. all blended into ONE because they id themselves as Catholics FIRST before nationality). So...we've got to DROP the nationality and put Orthodox/BCC FIRST as our id.

I hope and pray that all ethnicity and nationalities of the Eastern Churches in America will DIE off...so we can all blend into ONE Orthodox/BCC Church instead of Ukrainians here, Russians there, Antiochians over there, etc. SILLY! SILLY INDEED!!!

The Pope is the only person with NO ID, meaning he's not defined as Western or Eastern..just Universal Ecumenical Pontiff..that's why RCC (Western) and BCC (Eastern) can truly be together....as two lungs. It WORKS and CAN work.

So again, being an American and Eastern Christian isn't entirely impossible.

G-d bless,

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Dear SPDundas,

Like the Administrator, you too don't seem to appreciate the pervasiveness of the impact of culture on the Rite and Church itself!

(Are you two related somehow? )

The Ukrainian Church can cease speaking Ukrainian one day, but that doesn't make that Church any less "Ukrainian" in terms of spiritual outlook which includes, but goes well beyond perogies, dancing and embroidered shirts.

I guess what I'm confronted with here is an American cultural perspective on other cultures - and, believe me, I'm doing my best to understand it.

Perhaps when I myself get fully culturally acclimated to the American scene.

Loved your President's State of the Union address yesterday!

Alex

Resistance to change and ethnicity are challenges throughout the christian east (elsewhere, too, I suppose).

Does the change away from ethnicity need to be driven by the laity (though hierarchy tries mighty hard on its own)? Parishes with strong gatekeeper-type ethnic laity can discourage converts from other nationalities, whether the priest wants it or not. Clergy see the need for the laity to help conversions by changing that mindset, but there is no church imperative with teeth for doing so. Even internal charity organizations tend to be prioritized around the ethnic base here and overseas (where the money usually goes), not usually giving help regardless of origin, figuring other charities will take care of those.

Can change with regard to official recognition of churches happen without grassroot support? Doubtful.

So, the ethnic identity stays in place along with the position of opposing ecumenical rapprochement with Rome. No one is "forced" to make a change, because the attempt usually leads to schism or a change to another parish, etc. Agreeing to disagree often prevails, because there are many issues and concerns, not just missionary activity.

So, from the inside, the eastern churches have a tough row to hoe when it comes to non-ethnic converts period.

God's unconditional love is not always easily seen in the works of man.

Dear Alex,

I guess I really don't understand the ethnic thing, because I am a melting pot American who has never identified deeply with any other nationality. I am mostly Norwegian, but also German, Irish, and English. I even have 1/16th Cherokee Indian in my blood! Believe it or not, there is nothing wrong with that! I suppose our preferences have to do with our entire upbringing and what has formed us personally.

I agree with most of the posters here, that it must be about universal Christianity. And I don't mean to offend, but I have to admit I am offended when anyone suggests that a person must put on an ethnic exterior in order to truly "be" a BC or an Orthodox. I agree with Alice that the Roman Church in America has gone overboard with westernizing the Church, but I think the Easterner's need to learn a little from the RCC about being inclusive of cultural traditions without epitomizing them.

I long for Eastern things because of the deep spiritual significance of the icons, prayers, liturgy,(I could go on and on). But I don't equate any of that with eating a certain style of food or speaking a certain language. This is what America needs: an Eastern tradition of worship, but not necessarily the ethnic trappings. They are incidental. Also, when someone suggests they are necessary, I feel offended. I can never "become" Greek or Russian, etc. But I want to be a deep part of the spiritual tradition. My connection to all this is that it comes from the ancient fathers, not the Russians.

Ethnic groups do not own the Spiritual Tradition; the universal Church owns the souls of all believers, and they are all entitled to the ancient form of worship that builds up the Body of Christ as one. Please God, may she own mine as well, even though I am an American.

I say all this not to offend those of ethnic ties. I say it in the hope that they will see that their culture is not the necessary part. (Does that sound like the Martha/Mary thing? Maybe that is relevant here.)

In all Christian charity, I am challenging you on this one. I don't think the Administrator is the stubborn one. I have been thoroughly enlightened by your posts here and the education and example you provide for others. I believe you have a pre-eminent role to lead others in faith issues. So I mean no offense. But I do mean to shake up the hardline ethnics. I wonder if the ethnic Churches may die out in America, simply because they are nationally entrenched. I may have been insensitive here to the ethnic persuasion. That is not my main intention. I just mean to vocally represent an American of Eastern persuasion who feels put out. Many evangelical Americans would join our Eastern parishes and tradition if we were more welcoming instead of self-serving.

I hope we create BC Churches where ALL are welcome! And beautiful worship of our Lord reigns, not ethnicity.

This is the proper Forum for this type of wonderful discussion. May the Eastern Church profit from our prayers and discussion.

Peace of Christ,
Tammy

I am just wondering who says one must change one's ETHNIC outlook to join an EC or Orthodox parish? If the language of the liturgy is in English in whole or in part, then the ethnicity of the parish has nothing to do with anything. For goodness sake, people! So you may have varenyky sales in a Ukrainian parish, and baklava sales in a Greek parish...enjoy the food, and talk to people about their AMERICAN lives...very rarely will you hear anyone insisting on talking about Greece, or Ukraine, or Russia, to the exclusion of all else. Just talk to people as PEOPLE, make some friends at coffee hour, and all go out for Chinese food later on!

Gaudior, whose point was, that food is NOT a religion (except to some)

My ancestors have been here far too long for me to identify with any ethnic group. I feel lucky that our Byzantine mission is made up of many people in a similar situation. We don't really have first generation immigrants. The attraction for me is the Divine Liturgy, which has little to do with ethnicity, unless someone is advocating a return to the Greek culture of Constantinople. I would say we are Americans united around a way of worship.

Amen, brother!
please send me a pair of ruby slippers, US size 13(mens of course). I sahll click them on Sunday afternoon, and be there to visit y'all at Holy Resurrection for Liturgy.
Much Love,
Jonn

Dear Fr. Gregory,

This is a very interesting thread. Thank you for starting it.

What about the question of rite and liturgy? We know that the Divine Liturgy looks a little different in different cultures. I'm not an expert here. What accounts for the differences? Is it different musical settings? What would an American version be like?

Does one liturgy make it any easier than another for an American convert to feel at home?

At some point, this discussion is going to end up at the core of what makes us Orthodox/Eastern. Orthodox identity seems to be so bound up with a particular rite, but we know that this hasn't always been the case, that there was great liturgical diversity in the first centuries that has been lost.

David

If I may interject a little humor.

On The Onion Dome website blog someone responded to an article by saying that they thought that in an Americanized version of Orthodoxy perhaps the wedding 'Dance of Isaiah' around the altar should be a square dance, and another said that it should be a Texas two step! :p :rolleyes:

( for those of you who are wondering, the onion dome is a facetious and somewhat irreverend version of Eastern Orthodox news and happenings)

Ofcourse, I am sure that Father Vasiley will put the two jokesters in their place by telling them that it 'is outrage'!!!! I can just hear him now: "Was it square dance and Texas two step in 19th century Russia?"

Dear Alice,

Is Outrage!

Alex

Dear David,

In my albeit limited experience in assisting converts, it seems to me that those with strong ties to Western Churches and who aren't leaving them for Orthodoxy in anger - these are often the ones who prefer a Rite that reflects the tradition they've left.

And the Antiochian Church is great in that department, having two Western Rites and an "Evangelicalized" Byzantine Rite for the "Evangelical Orthodox Outreach."

Alex

I think the Orthodox Churches in America will come through this "ethnicity question," but it will take decades.

The Catholic Church has done a great job at this, but there are still ethnic Catholic parishes. My dad and his family attended the Catholic church where all the Sicilians went, for example.

This reminds me of a time a couple months ago when Fr. Angelus Shaughnessy was giving a lecture on ethnicity as related to religion. To be honest, I can't remember much of the substance of what he said...but he did tell a personal story during which he asked a group of kids why they were Catholic. A young boy stood up proudly ("and even puffed out his chest a little" said Fr. Angelus) and said, "Because I'm Italian and Italians are Catholic!"

What I really love about my church is that one ethncity doesn't dominate another. There are people of Irish, German, Polish, Italian, Sicilian, Korean, Filipino, and Latin American descent - - - and a heck of a lot of converts, most of whom are probably of Anglo descent. It's truly a melting pot of all those who hold to the True Faith.

Logos Teen (a mix-breed whose ancestry stretches from the Greek islands to the Scottish Highlands)