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Christ is Born!

Hiho all. I'm being driven up the wall by this crazy Trad RC (Feenyite no less) on an online forum. How do I prove that Eastern Catholics have permission to venerate post-schism Saints? My criterion - "he/she is OBVIOUSLY holy" - doesn't work for these people, and they want documents. I'm beginning to think that their concept of the Holy Trinity is actually comprised of "Paper, Ink and Rubber Stamp".

Where can I show these nuts that Russian Catholics, for example, have permission to have a full Orthodox calendar?

Dear Edward,

Christ is Born!

Met. Andrew Sheptytsky petitioned Rome to allow for the veneration of all Orthodox saints in the Russian Orthodox calendar by the Russian Catholic Church.

The petition was granted in 1904.

Alex

Christ is Born!

Dear Alex,

Thank you very much for that one, it'll be useful - is there a document reference?

Many thanks,

Edward

Christos Rozhdayetsya!

Edward, having taught at an SSPX school pre-schism (1988) I can definitely empathize.

Here is one that can be verified at the Vatican:
Letter from Secretariat of State Peter Gasparri to Fr. Alexis Zerchaninov (Russian Catholic), 1908 which specifically commands him to "observe the laws of the Slavonic Rite faithfully and in all of their integrity, without any admixture from the Latin, and HE MUST SEE THAT ALL HIS SUBJECTS AND CLERGY DO THE SAME". (my emphasis)
No hagiographic limitations or prohibitions are indicated at all.

Statement of St. Pius X (the patron of many RC traditionalists) to Mlle. Ushakova, made in public, of "nec plus, nec minus, nec aliter" when she asked him for specific direction for the Russian Catholic Church with regards to adherence to Russian tradition spiritually, liturgically, and theologically, which also occurred around 1908.

Brief of Benedict XV confirming him as Exarch of the Russian Catholic Church in 1921. Several RC clergy had questioned the authority of Metropolitan Andrey to do so, had complained, and Benedict the XV settled the issue definitively. The letter furthermore exhorts him to faithfully maintain his Russian tradition in every way, and closes with "To Our beloved son Leonid Federov", copied to Metropolitan Andrey.

Letter from Secretariat of State to Metropolitan Andrey in 1923 praising him for his work with the Studites and the Russian Catholics and encouraging him to maintain his work in preserving the tradition without influence from the Latin. Again, no limitations on the cults of Orthodox saints.

Never has such a prohibition that you have described ever been officially promulgated by Rome. In fact in the Ukrainian Catholic, Melkite and other Greek Catholic Churches the second Sunday of the Great Fast has been returned to the commemoration of St. Gregory Palamas, most certainly post-"schism". The Basilian Sisters of Uniontown even restored his commemoration in their Triodion of 1995.

The Studites had continued this commemoration of St. Gregory, as they had been instructed to under Metropolitan Andrey and Archimandrite Klementy, but were later criticized in some latinized circles after their deaths for doing so.

Patriarch Josyp blessed a Ukrainian translation of St. Gregory's service for the second Sunday of the Great Fast back in the 70s. UGCC Bishop Basil Losten in his work on the Great Fast "Paschal Pilgrimage" praises the restoration of St. Gregory Palamas to the Lenten services.

I would respond that if intercessory prayer to these saints is so damaging, why hasn't Rome comdemned it? Because (1) it is efficacious, not damaging, and (2) that is an issue that needs to be decided within the Churches sui iuris.

Offhand, I am unaware of any magisterial statement from any Catholic authority which would prohibit the veneration of Orthodox Saints. A great deal in these matters depends upon custom. Incognitus

Dear Edward,

The best person to consult on references in this matter is none other than Fr. Serge Keleher - he was the one who first introduced me to these issues and I know he has copies of all the references.

As he told me, "We don't question each other's (Catholic and Orthodox Church) canonizations."

He himself attended Orthodox canonizations of Saints where RC prelates were in attendance, venerated the icons of the newly glorified ORthodox saints and took copies with them as they left!

Alex

Dear Edward,

Now that my wife has gone off to work and I can think about this by myself without interruption . . .

The Introduction of Fr. Holweck's "A Biographical Dictionary of the Saints" is very much worth reading in connection with this topic.

Fr. Holweck shows how all sorts of saints from all sorts of churches and groups have made their way into the Catholic (and Orthodox) calendars, including Arian, Assyrian and Miaphysite saints.

But the policy of Rome with respect to Eastern Churches that enter into union with it is to leave all the Saints that those churches have had in their calendars alone - with the proviso that certain saints who might have been known for their anti-Roman views (or who were condemned by Councils as heretics) may have their public cultus dropped.

Ultimately, local bishops and synods have the authority to approve the local cult of saints.

Thus, the Ruthenian Church has approved of the liturgical cult of St Photios the Great - when this saint is not venerated by Rome nor recognized as a saint by Rome at all, or at least not yet.

Sts. Volodymyr and Olha of Kyiv are in the Roman calendar - even though they were glorified not by Rome, but by the Orthodox Church after the schism of 1054 AD (in the time of St Andrew Boholiubsky).

Most of the saints have been glorified locally, in any event.

Alex

I do think that St Photios has been somewhat malighed; by no means was he perfect but he was an excellent theologian and pastor. I do know that there is a tendency every so often to debate the merits of our respective saints ... I like St Francis quite a bit for example but am not keen on St Thomas Aquinas. Besides, what is the general opinion of St Mark of Epheseus? One wonders where Dante would have placed him....

Anton

Dear Anton,

Yes, the RC West has traditionally placed the entire blame for the East-West schism squarely on the shoulders of Photios - a view that hasn't totally been expunged despite the work of such Western scholars as Fr. F. Dvornik.

St Mark of Ephesus is referred to, by one RC author I know, as "that furious schismatic."

But the fact remains that Mark Eugenikos was highly respected by Pope Eugenius at the Council - he met with the Pope more frequently than any other Greek hierarch. Meyendorff and others say that when Mark refused to sign the instrument of union at Florence, the Pope was said to have remarked, as you know, "We have accomplished nothing."

I have seen RC friends with icons of the "Pillars of Orthodoxy" in their homes.

I noticed one such icon on the wall of a Latin friend and I stopped by it to examine it closely.

He saw me and said, "I keep that to remind me that there are others who are just as strong in their faith as I am in mine."

Alex

Dear Edward,

You may want to mention to the Trad RC that the official Roman Martyrology (Martyrogium Romanum) lists a post-schism Orthodox saint: Saint Sergius of Radonezh (pg 507). This obviously means the Holy See recognizes the holiness of Saint Sergius to officially add him to the Catholic liturgical calendar.

Also, the writings of St. Symeon of Thessalonica, another post-schism Orthodox saint, are used in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. (See Article 1690, page 364)

Hope this helps.

griego

Edward, my brother:

You've gotten some excellent advice from our brothers above me.

Besides knowing that the Holy Spirit goes where He wills for the Father's purposes and not ours, one has to look at the sanctity of the person's life. And then, if one is venerated by one part of the Catholic Church, how can one be restricted from venerating that same saint in another part?

May I humbly suggest that you look at the advice I gave one of our other brothers in how to handle a Roman bully. Walk away from these people. They don't come up to the top of your heels as a servant of Christ and they sure aren't worth your time or the disturbance of your peace and faith in Christ. I make this judgment based on the advice and posts I've seen here from you. If the whole experience doesn't bring up the gifts of the Spirit, it isn't of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, etc. Some of these people fit the old saw about people getting to Heaven and being surprised at who is there and who isn't--or maybe being surprised at being on the Left Hand.

In Christ,

BOB

P.S.: Please excuse my ignorance, but what is a Feenyite?

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/3321/thirdP.html

--tim

Dear Alex:

I love Fr. Holweck's book. He must have had a lot of time on his hands! Oh well, I find him very informative. I collect holy cards of the Saints. His information has been very helpful.

Dearest Theophan
A Feenyite is someone who followed a certain Fr Feeny of Boston into heresy sometime in the 1930's.
He took the term "extra ecclesiam nulla salus" to the extreme.He was later reconciled with the Catholic Church, however some of his followers are still persistant.
Stephanos I

Tim and StephanosI:

Thanks. Never too old to learn. Did you ever wonder and lament the many tangents that folks have gone off in search of Christ? I always test the spirit that seems to drive some of these folks and it seems to me that love, joy, peace, etc. always seems to elude them.

Thanks again.

BOB