www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Rite change, how specific?

Hi,

I'm sorry to ask this if the answer is to be found elsewhere, I've looked around and haven't seen the issue addressed as clearly as I'm looking for. So, moderator, feel free to delete this thread if I'm being redundant.

Anyhow, if you change rites from RC to EC, how specific is it? Do you become simply Byzantine, or are you a member of the UGCC or Ruthenian, etc etc et al?

I'm asking because I'm thinking of/praying about changing rites NEXT YEAR - give myself a good year-and-a-half to mull it over. Right now I have access to a Maronite church and my UGCC parish I attend, but I may not live here forever and I don't want to "strand" myself and be without a church.

It would be bad enough to be without ANY EC churches, but it would be horrible if I switched and then lost the church of my official status.

Booth,

Actually, I thought I recollected it being addressed, and not too long ago - but, I looked around and can't find it either.

You don't become simply Byzantine or simply Antiochian, etc.. You become a member of a specific Church sui iuris, UGCC, Ruthenian, Melkite, etc.

Obviously, there's no guarantee that you'll find a parish of your Church, no matter to where you relocate and there are certainly examples here on the Forum. Edward Yong is a Byzantine Russian; it's hard enough to find a Russian Catholic parish anywhere (only 4 in the US), let alone in Singapore, where Edward is. Pani Rose attends a Melkite parish in Birmingham, where her husband, a Ruthenian Deacon serves the Melkite parish in his ministry, for lack of a parish of their own Church. Those are only 2 examples; there are a number of folks here who have no immediate access to any Eastern parish.

I think you have to trust in the fact that, wherever you go, there will be an opportunity to worship. Admittedly, to do so in your Eastern ways, it might have to be performed privately and/or in your heart - while the outward manifestation might be transpiring in a Latin or Orthodox church. Obviously, your chances to find a parish of your Church will be much increased if it is one of the 4 most represented in the US - Ukrainians, Ruthenians, Melkites, or Maronites.

My advice. Pray and follow the path along which God leads you.

Many years,

Neil

Christ is Risen!
If one takes care to be insistent about it, it is possible to obtain a "transfer" to the Byzantine "Rite", without specifying which ethnic variety (the chanceries don't like to do this, but it can be done). For those of us who see no reason to be forced to adopt somebody's ethnic identity in order to attend the Church of our choice, that option makes sense - but if you want the document, be prepared to insist, and don't take "it can't be done" for an answer.
The "more excellent way" is as simple as can be - aggregate yourself to the body of the faithful of whatever Church you wish to join (most people prefer joining a parish to joining an abstraction). If you later move house, and the nearest - or only - accessible Byzantine parish is of another ethnic origin, well, aggregate yourselve to the body of the faithful again. It works. Besides, it helps save the trees (by reducing the waste of paper).
It is much more difficult even to grasp what it would mean to become generically "Eastern Catholic".
Incognitus

I recently visited a Greek Catholic church (gloriously beautiful and prayerful and friendly and compellingly grace-filled, need I go on?) and spoke with registered members of the parish who are Roman Catholic, and have been attending this Greek church for nearly a decade. When I inquired about their changing rites, they informed me that it is not necessary. They are in communion and satisfied with their worship experience as Roman Catholics. So this got me wondering why the paperwork is even important. I will go back there again, as often as I get the chance. The question I didn't ask was what about children? When children come along, and you want them to receive the sacraments as infants, is this possible if the paperwork has never been done to transfer rites? I still have a lot to learn. Tammy

Tammy,

Technically, no, but, in actuality, a lot depends on the priest.

Many years,

Neil

Incognitus,

Back in the late 60's, early 70's, there was a period when such documents were rather easily obtained - although not necessarily sought. I think whomever was issuing transfer paperwork at the time (the dicastry after the transfer was "blessed" by the Apostolic Delegate, as I recollect) was in lazy mode and into boilerplating. I knew several folks who recieved documentation translating them to Ritus Byzanticum(?sp).

Many years,

Neil

Christ is Risen!

Greetings all,
I have a deep and genuine attachment to the Eastern Theology and Spirituality as expressed through the Byzantine churches, I have felt this way for a very long time and there is no question in my mind that this is where I belong.

However I do not have an appreciation for the official ethnic tag of the eparchies. I cannot relate to it and I personally find it unnecessary. The cultural context of the parish can be full of many delightful and charming customs that reflect the congregations foundations, I enjoy them and participate but as has been said, when one moves to a new area one gets a whole new set of charming and delightful customs.

I see putting myself under the jurisdiction of a specific Eparch or bishop a separate issue from actually being a Byzantine Catholic, which should not depend upon my ancestry or his. To me that would be like a convert to the Roman church having to specify that they will be a Polish Catholic, or a French Catholic or some other arbitrary category when really they will be no such thing. I would like to transfer generically to the Byzantine Rite as has been suggested that it is possible, but don't I risk offending the Eparch whose cooperation and permission I need to do such a thing?

As I see it, when I register at a parish I expect the Eparch over that parish to be my bishop. I certainly could see that some people may wonder why it matters, but in this century there are likely to be a lot more people coming into the church with similar concerns, the church is out of the ghetto now.

Are there alternative methods of applying for a transfer? Should I write the Papal Nuncio? The whole issue is a stumbling block for me and is one small reason that I have delayed asking for my own transfer.

In Christ,
Michael

Hey Michael, long time no chat. I identify with what you have written; if I could officially transfer to a generic Byzantine jurisdiction I would but like you I don't identify with a particular eastern ethnic group. That [a nonethnic Byzantine jurisdiction] will never happen, though. Heck, the ethnic tensions exist among peoples that seem identical to those of us with a western European background [I have a history of the Rusyns written in the 1970s that talks about "the Ukrainian menace"! By which the author means the sort of pan-Ukrainianism we have seen on the forum].
My solution is to worship "in spirit and truth", that is, keep it unofficial. My pastor suggested this, saying that changing rites really is western, juridical approach to things. I realize this does create some problems -our kids receive Communion, for example, but have not been chrismated. The pastor has offered, but we decided that as they are in a Roman parochial school and their classes will be confirmed together that they should wait. Not a perfect solution by any means but I agree with you, and hesitate to make a permanent identification with an ethnic culture that is not my own [and I doubt a Celtic Byzantine eparchy is in the works], however much I may enjoy it.

A Celtic Byzantine Eparchy? Don't laugh. I gladly nominate Kyr John (Pazak) of the Eparchy of Ss Cyril and Methodius in Canada (yes, I know they were never in Canada!) - his mother's maiden name is Hennessy. His Grace will find that at least in North America the number of Celtic Greek-Catholic clergy and faithful is substantially greater than the number of active, practicing Slovak Greek-Catholic clergy and faithful in Canada. Beir Bua! Ta' Criost Aiserithe!
Incognitus

Where might we found (as in, establish) a melting-pot Byzantine Catholic Church? It seems there are far too many who find the ethnicities charming, yet would really rather forego Baklava in favor of Dunkin' Donuts! All kidding aside, I love to see people of many and all nationalities, ethnicities, etc. in an Eastern Church, in the unity of CHRIST. He should be our focus, not our cultural traditions. Tammy

Christ is Risen!

It seems funny but the Byzantine, or Constantinopolitan church is sliced into a whole bunch of pieces. This issue is not only an Eastern Catholic one but it is a reality in all of the Orthodox churches as well.

There are Serbian, Bulgarian, Romanian, Ukrainian, Belorussian, Russian and some might include Macedonian churches. Then there are the Greeks and the Melkite-Greek tradition of the Antiochian Orthodox. The fragmented nature of the Byzantine Catholic churches mirrors the fragmentation of the Orthodox churches.

It doesn't really matter if you live in one of those homelands, an expatriate should just attend the local Orthodox church wherever they find themselves. But in the U.S.A and many other "western" nations the situation is ridiculous. American converts to Orthodoxy are always discussing the relative merits of one jurisdiction or another. "I won't go back to 'xxxx' church because of such and such reason" or "My next parish an English liturgy is a must". That sort of thing. American converts have these concerns!

It is no different in the Eastern Catholic churches. I am not advocating the creation of new jurisdictions like Hispanic or Celtic or "American", but what I am saying is the old designations do not apply. The transfer should not make me a Romanian (or Ukrainian or Slovak) Catholic. It should make me a Byzantine Catholic, plain and simple.

The other irony to this whole thing is that my Eparch is 300 miles away but there is a perfectly capable Eparch in the Byzantine tradition less than 30 miles from me. But I guess that's another topic altogether, and we shouldn't really want to go there again so soon after Pascha.

In Christ,
Michael

Hi Daniel Lover-of-Icons!

It sounds like you are doing a good job managing the situation. The compromises and adjustments you are making seem sensible, if less than ideal.

I may just never transfer jurisdictions, the whole thing is an artificial construction anyway, in heaven there are no jurisdictions!

But in my heart I am no longer perfectly at home as a Roman Catholic, the thinking among many people I have encountered seems to be that the eastern churches are only externally different, almost superficially, and the church is indulging us in our desire to "play church" with a unique liturgy. I am saying that I have become interiorly different, it is difficult to explain to some people without starting an argument.

The best comparison I can think of is that the various eastern traditions each have a unique charism, but really it is something more than that.

In Christ,
Michael

Dear in Christ Michael,

Indeed, He is risen!

I don't know of any Orthodox who thinks the current jurisdictional chaos is good. I can't imagine any BC thinking the same either. The problem is that some people want to think back into time as if it were today, that is not useful. The various national Churches sent priests to minister to their faithful in "the diaspora." As is well known all the Orthodox faithful in the US were under Russian jurisdiction until 1917, then it was chaos and chaos it has remained. The situation of the ECs is different.

For the Orthodox it is harder as there are issues such as the calendar etc, but why can't the BCs wipe out the jurisdictional division?

Like someone said (sorry it's getting late and I keep starting and coming back to this) in the Old World this type of overlapping does not occur, except for ethnic reasons in limited situations.

Even the RCs have the military jurisdiction and used to have ethnic parishes. It will take time to recover from these emergency procedures.

Tony

Michael,

The Catholic or Orthodox reality is that you must be under the jursidiction of a bishop plain and simple. There is no generic BC diocese or bishop, they are either Ruthenian, Melkite, Romanian or Ukrainian (sorry if I missed any). So if you became a generic BC under which jurisdiction would you fall as they all overlap?

Tony

We have people in our home parish who have been regular members of our church for years, and I'm sure they have never formally converted. We are happy to have them and we treat them like one of the gang. Don't worry - be happy !

Hritzko