www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Why no more Orthodox Ecumenical Councils?

Dear djs,

I think we're reading from the same prayerbook, Friend!

Our other friend was referring to the doctrines of papal jurisdictional primacy and infallibility that were promulgated at the First Vatican Council as "new" doctrines in addition to that of primacy of honour.

Have you gotten to that page yet?

Alex

Alex,

I thought it was definite that, from the Catholic perspective (I'm not trying to offend any Orthodox here) that the Orthodox Churches were schismatic?

<B>schism Pronunciation Key (skzm, sz-)
n.
A separation or division into factions.

A formal breach of union within a Christian church.
The offense of attempting to produce such a breach.
Disunion; discord.</B>

Does this not describe the relationship between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches? How is the relationship between the SSPX and the Catholic Church different than the Orthodox relationship with the Catholic Church?

ChristTeen287

I knew I shouldn't have tried to use the UBB Code myself. Dang it.

Shlomo ChristTeen287,
codes use brackets [], you used chevrons <>. Also, how is your search going on Italo-Greek Catholicism?

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

I was the master of the UBB Code back at Beliefnet, but with all this fancy schmancy let-the-computer-do-it-for-you thing has got my brain all tied in knots! Italo-Greek Catholicism is very intriguing, but there's only one or two parishes in to United States, which is a bit depressing. I'm proud of my Sicilian (albeit Latin) Catholic heritage, and probable Italo-Greek Byzantine heritage.

Though I'm not sure how faithfully Catholic my relatives were (even though they absolutely went bonkers when my nannu married a Scottish Presbyterian, my nonna) because, after all, because my great-grandfather was big-time in the Mafia.

ChristTeen287

Could I have any more typos, redundancies, and run-on sentences? LOL.

Iskander el habeeb,

Wow, it's so nice to hear that said (or see it written). Many western Catholics have uhm, different views on that. In my opinion, they are just annoyed that we dared to refuse to read Pope Leo's letter. :-)

It's sad, so many people do not realize this, that he was censured for behaviour and for failing to attend the council (even though it was them who bound him after the first session!). I really do not even bother discussing the issue anymore with the many EO or Catholics who insist he was monophysite and don't even realize that that wasn't what he was excommunicated for...or if they read the minutes, they would see that he spoke 100% correctly on His nature. As you said, if for no other reason - believe it because he was Cyril's nephew!!! lol

Alex, that made me laugh sooooooooo hard. that was classic! It took me awhile to get accustomed to the violent nature of some of them, and their innocence in doing it! lol Although, they are pretty funny.

Hmm... St. Severus, is one of the harder ones to find. You're likely to find that at a monastery in Egypt. I'll keep my out, and if I find one, I'll send it to you.
I checked out www.theotokos.org [theotokos.org] (got their catalogue), but they do not have him.

Peace and grace to you!
Agape,
Mina, a son of the Alexandrians
Amen, maranatha!

Dear Mina,

Could you make me an honorary Oriental Christian?

Alex

Dear ChristTeen,

As for your grammar - it is God Who forgives!

"Schism" is today sometimes used to describe the relationship between Catholics and Orthodox in terms of a "two-way street." Both are in schism from each other.

Catholics have traditionally called the Orthodox "schismatics" in accordance with their belief that the Orthodox were, before 1054, "under" the Pope in terms of jurisdiction and then decided to leave that jurisdiction.

And that understanding is entirely false and totally ahistorical.

The Eastern Churches, Orthodox, Oriental and Assyrian, were never "under" the Pope jurisdictionally. At best, they were in communion with the Pope of Rome (as opposed to the Pope of Alexandria, the first to use that title of "Pope") and accorded him a primacy of honour at Councils. Individual Churches and bishops could ask the Pope to act as judge in cases of heresy etc., but only if and when they asked him to.

So "Schism" never applied to the break that began fomenting in the time of St Photios, blew up in 1054 and was definitely solidified in 1204 with the Sack of Constantinople when the East REALLY got a sense of what the West thought of them . . .

The Orthodox never left from "under" the Pope, as the SSPX most certainly did.

They are therefore in classical schism, as were the Russian Old Believers in the sixteenth century.

I think the Old Believer Schism and that of the SSPX have a lot in common in many ways . . .

Add to this, that the anathemas of 1054 were finally and forever lifted by Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras in the 1960's.

Alex

I thought you already were...

Dear Qathuliqa,

O.K., I'll start bringing my Ethiopian prayer staff with me to work .

Thanks, Big Guy!

Alex

To my honorable Oriental friend,

Careful walking around Ontario with the maqomiya big guy. I once saw an Italian tourist almost get arrested at the airstrip in Lalibela because he insisted on taking it on the passenger part of the airplane. You see the "Prayer stick' can also be used as a weapon, or were you really planning to get in a fist fight with someone on the forum (or most likley at work)?

Anyways, I am not sure of your age (and I am not asking either) but impressionistically, like I told you, I think you are still too young to be using a Prayer Stick. You should still be able to stand for the entirety of Mass with one leg elevated.

Selam Aklie!

Yes, I bought two large Orthodox metal Crosses when I was in Paris last year (around this time . . .sniff . . .) and put them into my carry-on.

Well, security went bananas! They were made of bronze and they were heavy.

When I was asked who I was thinking of attacking with them, I told them "No one with an actual physical body."

Perhaps they thought the Italian tourist was going to "stick it to someone."

It is interesting that, in monastic practice, the hand cross and the prayer beads are referred to as the "Sword of the Spirit."

One Catholic saint compared prayer beads or the rosary to David's sling "by which we vanquish the spiritual Goliath."

Alex

*Draws out Coptic hand cross...*
Khen ef ran em ef Yot, nem ep Shiri nem PiEpnevma Ethowab (In the name of the Father...)

now lower your head...what I'm about to do is heresy because I'm not ordained, but since you're just getting an honorary rank we'll try it.... I'll do it in English so that Mor Ephrem, another official Oriental can know when to say Amen (you are a chanter or higher, right Mor?)
"In the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, One God. Blessed be God the Father the Pantocrator. Amen."
Mor Ephrem's melodious voice.
"Blessed be His Only-Begotten Son, Jesus Christ, our Lord. Amen."
Mor Ephrme's melodious voice again.
"Blessed be the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete. Amen."
Mor Ephrem: Long Amen here...
We'll cut the prayers short.
Alex, I now make you an honorary Oriental, in the Name of the Father (breathes in his face and signs Alex), the Son (breathes a second time and signs again), and the Holy Spirit (last time, hold your breath I had garlic...sign of cross), one God, Amen!

Khein ef ran...hymn
Axios Axios Axios, Worth is Alexander the Oriental (i'll have to sing it for you someday when I'm in Toronto...i love going to St. Mark's there).

lol

Peace and grace.
Agape,
Wak-Wak el Qipty
Amen, maranatha!

Dear Mina,

Whew! You really blew me away there . . . Thank you - I needed that. Truly a breath of fresh air - I don't what you are talking about with respect to that garlic . . .

And, for my part, I promise to do my best to uphold the great name of the Oriental Orthodox Churches, to defend them against the "slings and arrows" of outrageous internet attacks, especially with respect to their Councils, Saints and the proper way to do the Trisagion!

And I thank Mor Ephrem for assisting at this internet ceremony with his sonorous voice.

I am already wearing a Matab and have my trusty hand-held El-Maskal with me too!

May the One God in the Holy Trinity bless you, at the prayers of the Mother of God, and Mar Dioscoros, Peter Mongus, Yacob Baradeus, Philoxenus of Mabbugh, Timothy Aelurus and Kyril VI!

Alex(andrian)