www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Mary: Co-redeemer? Mediatrix?

As everyone knows, these titles are sometimes ascribed to the Virgin Mary by Roman Catholics. There is even a movement to have them dogmatically defined, though I can't really envision that happening.

I'm quite interested in how Byzantine Catholics and Eastern Orthodox believers respond to these Marian titles.

TIA.

Slava Jesu Kristu,

The Romans can call her what they wish. Like the teaching of the Immaculate Conception, it does not fit in with our way of thinking as defined. As I understand it, such titles only fit within a Western theological framework.

Dmitri

Dear Fr. Kimel,

We already had a small but bloody war over this subject here on the forum.

Rather than open old wounds, I recommend that you review that "conflict" first.

With love in the Christ of Peace,
Andrew

Thank you for that suggestion. I should have thought of that first.

After reviewing the threads, though, I must say that they don't seem too bloody. :-)

"Twas like Pickett's charge, at the bloody angle, when the smoke cleared there were casualties everywhere

No one knows how many were lost that day…

I have a question. Do we not, as Byzantines, already address the Theotokos as Mediatrix?

I am looking in my Old Orthodox Prayer Book published by the Russian Orthodox Chrch of the Nativity of Christ (Old Rite) in Erie, PA.

Specifically the Canon for the Soul of a Deceased Person.

The have we as a wall and a refuge, and a Mediatrix well-pleaseing to God Who was born of thee, O unwed Theotokos, salvation of the faithful.


David

I rather like the term "Saving Champion" which I came across in a prayerbook.

David, I've encountered the same reference of the Theotokos as Mediatrix in some OCA liturgical texts, e.g., Vespers, too. So maybe we're not too far apart on this. But "Co-Redemptrix?" No way!

Most Holy Theotokos, save us!

OrthodoxEast

Yes, the Eastern tradition does call the Theotokos a "Mediatrix" but certainly NOT as a "Co-Redemptix", but a helper for us by her intercession but not coming to the point of how Our Lord is our Redeemer.

As OLSoL has pointed out,

https://www.byzcath.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=000667

the co-Redemptrix idea was nicely, and perhaps originally, articulated by a Byzantine monk of the tenth century. So what's with the "no way" "certainly NOT"?

As you djs write it co-Redeemer I don't think anyone would have a problem. But the problem is that some people change co-Redeemer into CoRedeemer implying equality with the act of Jesus Christ's Redemption and it can become very confusing.

My opinion is that the decision as to whether or not to give Mary any particular title should *not* be based on what "some people" might think. There will always be "some people" who don't approve of the way Catholics think about Mary. No matter how many times we explain that we don't really "worship" Mary, just do a Google search for the words "Catholics worship Mary" and see what comes up!

I think the terms Co-Redemptrix, and Co-Redeemer are both severely misleading and unnecessary.

From the Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Dr Ludwig Ott (1952) Christ alone truly offered the sacrifice of atonement on the cross; Mary merely gave Him moral support in his action. Christ, as the church teaches,"conquered the enemy of the human race alone (solus)"(D711);in the same way, He alone acquired the grace of Redemption for the whole human race, including Mary. St Ambrose expressly teaches : "Christ's Passion did not require any support".

So why are so many ultra traditional Latin Rite Catholics supporting the Co-Redemptrix movement ? It seems it's because they feel that Marian devotion is rapidly fading away and leaving all sorts of problems in it's wake, and so they believe that an infallible ruling by the Pope will help to counteract this. While there is certainly nothing wrong with Marian devotion, the main reason, first and foremost, that so many Catholic churches are going to hell in a handbasket, is not because of a lack of devotion to our Blessed Mother, but rather a lack of devotion to her Divine Son.

First of all, quite obviously the Blessed Virgin as Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix are not dogma, and therefore require no assent by any of the faithful. We are allowed to disagree on the orthodoxy or appropriateness of these titles while still remaining fully Catholic.

Personally, the way that both titles have been explained to me makes sense theologically, but I do believe that many people would misunderstand them. But, it is in God's hands, and He will lead His Faithful in whatever directions He wishes.

Let us humbly submit to the will and ruling of the Church, through which Christ our Divine Redeemer acts.

Logos Teen

Dear Friends,

"Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"

That sort of says it all for me . . .

Alex