www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Mary: Co-redeemer? Mediatrix?

Alex's last name is Roman

Alex my Spiritual Brother,

The quote goes "Our similarities are different"
-The great thinker Yogi Berra-

And a blessed Our Lady of Mt. Carmel day also, I must do a little penance for my forgetfulness.

Slava Isusu Khrystu,
james

Dear Jakub,

As you know, His Holiness himself is a Third Order Carmelite and he originally wanted to be a Carmelite priest, but was told he had the responsibility to serve the Church elsewhere . . .

There is a picture of him as a young man working in construction with his colleagues.

He stands out because he is the only one (they were all shirt-less) wearing the Scapular.

Happily, that was the only known "topless" picture of the future Pope . . .

Alex

Dear Latin Trad,

Yes, and this is because my ancestors were pilgrims to Rome and so took that name. My original ancestor came from Lithuania.

Pilgrims often took the name of the place they travelled to at great cost and risk.

Greek pilgrims to Jerusalem prefix their name with "Hatzi" meaning "Pilgrimage" such as in "Hatzi-Alexandrou" etc.

I'm a "Hatzi" guy too because I'm an official Pilgrim of Jerusalem. (Are you listening, Alice and Dr. John? ).

The Archbishop of Canterbury, to this day, appropriates the surname, "Cantuar" as well.

My grandfather was one of 25 children and he was crippled until the age of seven.

An uncle, following time-honoured tradition, visited Rome and brought back Holy Water from St Paul's Church marking the place of his martyrdom.

Great grand-dad Leo took his crippled son, John, before the village and vowed before God to have him become a priest if he would walk.

He then dipped John into the water three times and put him on his feet.

And John walked for the very first time . . .

John became a (married) EC priest with seven children of his own and served God as such for 70 years.

Great grand-dad Leo's employer recorded that miracle for posterity.

His employer was Metropolitan Andrew Sheptytsky.

(Do you feel any goose-pimples yet? )

Alex

Dear Alex,
Thanks for mentioning that about what I'd sent you. Actually, I only used that because you were no longer accepting private messages, so all it was - was a brief 'hello' message. It was not a document, so you didn't miss anything! I am not too 'into' posting here so much any more - I like to read and learn of course very much, but the big problem was that I found I was spending WAY too much time reading about things, thinking about things, like devotions, say, instead of ACTUALLY DOING them.
So, I may take extended breaks from posting and reading, and just try to do it 'now and then'.
Even if I may say that what bothers me is the picky back and forth about some east or west thing, the truth is that it's my own fault and spending too much time 'thinking about' instead of 'doing' or praying.
Blessings to all of you!
Communion of Saints

Dear Alex, (Hatzi-Roman!)

What a WONDERFUL story about your grandfather!!!


In Christ,
Alice

AMIN AMIN!!
Like my new avatar?

This discussion of Co-Redemptrix always seems to resurface every couple of months. There will always be inherent difficulties with Eastern Christians such as myself accepting the title "Co-Redemptrix" first of all because of a basic meaning of the prefix "co" as "equal to".

I have difficulty with the theologians who try to convince with the argument that it really means "cum" but this is not the title proposed, rather "co". So there is already a certain amount of theological doublespeak and inconsistency involved. There is only one Redeemer, Jesus Christ.

Just the inherent propensity to confusion of the title itself to me is reason enough to stay away from any firm theological defintions. Such a new theological definition will also likely serve to widen the gap between the Eastern and Western Churches, not unite them.

Certainly in the Byzantine tradition we pray to the Theotokos to save, (Most Holy Theotokos, Save Us!) but this is accomplished through her unique intercessions to the Redeemer, her Son. The lack of any theological statement proclaiming "Co-Redemptrix" will in no way detract from the extant beautiful Marian tradition of the Eastern and Western Churches, but rather continue the points of convergence already present.

Why proclaim a new, potentially controversial and divisive dogma when the liturgical, spiritual and theological corpus of both East and West overflows with hyperdulea to the Theotokos? Let the "lex credendi, lex orandi" guide us as it faithfully has and does instead of deriving "theology" separated integrally from liturgy and worship.

Maybe the Theotokos should be called "Co-Operatrix in the Redemption" or "Sub-redemptrix."



Logos Teen

Let us stick with the only Doctrinal title proclaimed by the Eastern Church in Council "Theotokos"

Dear Denise,
I can't vouch for canonicity, but there are numerous icons of Mary without Jesus (as with most icons of the saints). Not only the Annunciation as you mentioned, but also her Nativity, Presentation in the temple (even the Visitation in an orthodox seminary, as well as depictions of apparitions such as the Pokrov. What is most exceptional about iconography of Mary, is that, in contrast to iconography other saints, including the apostles and other contemporaries of Jesus - she is so typically depicted with the redeemer.

Dear djs,
Sorry, I was not clear in my last post (too many years of writing in medical charts, where one is expected to be as brief as possible -- no, I'm not a MD). I meant to say pretty much what you said -- the icons you mention of Mary, such as the nativity, is a story dealing with Jesus. The icons of the nativity I have seen actually have two Jesus, one with Mary in the cave and the other being bathed, down in the lower right corner. But they are always a story dealing with Mary and Jesus.

Off to work
denise

Dear djs,

In actual fact, there is no such thing as an image of Mary without Jesus!

The icon of the Theotokos, whatever it may be, is always and first and foremost an icon of the Incarnation of OLGS Jesus Christ.

The icon of the Annunciation is written to depict the moment of the Incarnation of our Lord in His Mother's Womb - Jesus is already with Her, even though we do not see Him.

In the Pokrova/Protection icon, and the general "Oranta" style - she is depicted in prayer with uplifted hands to her Son.

Even the Western "Our Lady of Grace" picture includes Christ since He is the "Sun" with which she is clothed.

There are the beautiful icons of the Swords piercing the soul of the Mother of God.

Again, our Lord is present in her soul and it is for sorrow for Him in His sufferings that she suffers.

St Seraphim of Sarov prayed the Jesus Prayer incessantly before his icon of Our Lady, the "Joy of all Joys."

This is an Annunciation icon and St Seraphim's mysticism focused on the development of the full stature of Christ within his and our souls.

Just as RC's pray the Rosary before the Blessed Sacrament, the Eastern tradition is to pray the Jesus Prayer before an icon of the Incarnation of Christ which is the icon of the Theotokos.

Alex

Well now - here I can come in with a bit of information.

Until the last few years, though RCs did pray the Rosary in front of the Blessed Sacrament during Exposition [ of course they did - no 'good Catholic ' would be without their beads] it was not an approved practice ! Well each prayer started 'Hail Mary' therefore you could not pray that before Her Son. [ I'm only quoting - so don't shoot the messenger ]

However now it is realised that these prayers are in fact Christocentric and are totally appropriate for such occasions.

believe it or not .........

Anhelyna

Dear Anhelyna,

When it comes to such modernist nonsense occurring in the RC Church, I'm a believer!

Rather than see Mary as somehow disconnected to her Son, we really need to refocus on the Incarnation and her role throughout her Son's Ministry.

It is she who tells us, at Cana in Galilee, to do "whatever He tells you."

She always points to her Son and just as He came to us through her, we go to Him the same way!

To pray the Hail Mary before the Blessed Sacrament is to celebrate the Incarnation and its great gift of Jesus in the Eucharist.

Mary and the Saints are simply an extension of the Incarnation and of the mediatorial role of Christ.

He is the One Mediator, but to be drawn into His Life is to participate in that mediatorial role ourselves in bearing His blessings and in helping to bring His blessings to the world.

Alex