www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Supposed differences in emphasis - yes or no?

Brethern,
Please excuse my last post, it was not meant for this topic. I was asking myself why the Passion is emphasized in the West where it is associated wth sorrow/sadness, where the Resurrection is associated with rejoicing,salvation in the East.

Which one would be more spiritual inviting to me?

In Christ,

james

You're right Alex.

It is certain that there are abuses in these realistic representations of the crucifiction and the proccessions with flagelants. Such events are frequent in Mexico, Philipines and Spain.

But this time people can't blame the local native cultures for this, it was clear that this was brought by Europeans (In Spain, these plays were forbidden by the Catholic Church until the XIX century, if I'm not mistaken).

The Spanish missionaries thought that these plays could be very didactic for the native populations, this is why the representations have a very native character. In Mexico the representations of the Crucifiction are meant to be realistic at a certain degree, but people participate as actors, and everything is representation like those in the movies or the theatres.

(It is nothing if compared with what people do in the Philipines, when men and women truly crucify themselves with nails and hammers, and torture themselves horribly.)

The flagellants are a different story, while the representations of the Passion had a native character (and they are held in places that are or once were inhabited by a majority of indigenous groups); The flagellants are totally European in their origin and are held in places where the European element prevailed (San Luis Potos�, Zacatecas). People who participate are anonimous, they cover their heads with black veils (this is, a reminiscence of the Inquisition times, and the penitents in Europe), and hurt their backs with whips. Other penitents are uncovered and they don't hurt their backs but their heads and are dressed in normal clothes (they look quite like the shiites).

The attitude of the Church has varied. There were always attempts to forbide the representations because they were "idolatric", but the roman bishops understood that they were important for the native communities because of its didactic character. So they prefered to remain silent (Bishops and priest are not allowed, in theory, to participate actively in these plays). In the 30's, the Revolution regime supressed the representations because they generated "fanatism" (and the Church said the same! ), in many places they remained forbidden (at least officially) until the 70's, but in fact the government encouraged the representations because they were atractive for the tourists. :p

Some Roman Bishops now, are critical of these practices but they can't do anything to supress them (that would cause a conflict with the local communities, who really need the representations and the atraction of touirists). they do not encourage them but they don't condemn them. The Orthodox priests I know, as well as the Maronite Bishop (Bishop Pierre Al-Tayah, now deceased ) , are, of course, opposed to these representations, and flagelations.

Remie,
are you sure the Passion plays were forbidden in Spain? I ask because miracle and mystery plays were common in medieval Europe and I'm surprised that Spain would be any different.

Wasn't flagellation originally practiced by some religious communities as a sort of discipline or ascetical practice?

Dear Remie,

Yes, the RC Church has officially banned all such public displays of self-flagellation etc. but that doesn't stop people from participating in them.

And that is an extreme example. There are still Passion processions here in Toronto - which are nice but do tend to underscore Christ's suffering etc.

In Spain, on average, more than one million whips are sold annually around Lent and more than three million hair-shirts are sold.

I have yet to buy one of either

It would be interesting to have these toys, no?

Alex

Honestly, I can understand the practices of self-flagellation, hair shirts, etc. As long as people don't go too overboard with it (as with the crucified in the Philippines) I respect the faithful's desire to suffer for Christ- - -something we are all called to do.

ChristTeen287

Where does one go about buying a hair shirt, and how much do they cost?

Dear Qathuliqa,

I've seen them for sale in Spain - perhaps our colleague Francisco would know where to get one.

They weren't expensive, but are made by local craftsmen.

It's too bad you live too far from my barber . . .

But why do you want a hair shirt?

Wait until you're married and you won't need one . . .

I can see a young man who is dating being interested in a whip . . . but a hair shirt?

Alex

But why do you want a hair shirt?

Oh, Alex, I don't want a hair shirt! I was just surprised that they still make them, and that there is a market for them.

Wait until you're married and you won't need one . . .

Yes, yes, I don't even think you need to get married for that sort of mortification...I sometimes get it now. :p

I can see a young man who is dating being interested in a whip . . . but a hair shirt?

Well, I didn't want to say anything about the whip originally (although I did think of it), but now that you mention it...

Dear Qathuliqa,

Yes, I understand from others that it is an experience that you just can't beat . . .

Alex

Hello:

I promised to look into this. I think I remember more than what I found, and actually, I didn't find it in any English resources. But the Spanish translation of Eucharistic Prayer III, does include an optional phrase for Sundays:

...Father, hear the prayers of the family you have gathered here before you [on the day when Christ conquered death and gave us a share in his immortal life]. In mercy and love unite all your children...

This is mentioned in "Dies Domini" No. 34. So I think it should be there, somewhere, in the English translation of the Missal. If not, well, that is just another example of how flawed the English translation is.

Shalom,
Memo.

Although I've heard this phrase, in Latin, used in Papal Masses at the Vatican, I have never seen it in any Roman rite Missal, in either Latin or English, in the United States. Perhaps it is not an option in America, but elsewhere?

At any rate, I'm glad to see that the use of this particular option is wider than just the occasional Papal Mass.

Also, on feast days for which there are proper texts for the Roman Canon (the prayer Communicantes, if I'm not mistaken), I've heard special phrases added to the other Eucharistic Prayers (specifically, II and III) when these are taken at Papal Masses, especially in more recent times. Are these also options elsewhere?

One thing I know for sure; I've never seen any of these things as options in any of the Latin/English Missals I've seen in this country.

Well, having come to this somewhat late as usual [ why are all these interesting little knotty problems always posted late at night (my time) ] I started to do a quick hunt for texts.

Now I have Missals here - and this addition/part of Eucharistic Prayer III is not included but you need to understand that the translation used in my Missal is not the one that is used in the US - honest- it is approved for , I quote England and Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Africa

Don't think that gets us any further forward though.

Anhelyna

Hello:

The absence of this and other optional parts from a particular book is proof of little.

First of all, we'd need to see if the book was approved for liturgical use. The missal I take to Mass is a pobket-sized booklet and it contains not only the ordinary of the Mass, but all the propers and readings for the current month.

The missal at the altar contains the ordinary and the propers for the year, but not the readings and it is a huge book. It is clear that my monthly missal might be missing something.

And even if these parts were ommited from a missal approved for liturgical use, it doesn't say anything about the rites of Roman Church, just about the quality of the translation of those rites into the English language.

My point here is that just as the Administrator says, that it is unfair that we Romans try to impose our religious cultural baggage upon the shoulders of our non-Roman brethren, it is equally unfair for you to judge the Roman Church based only on the portion of that Church that lives in the United States, or the portion of that Church that speaks English as first language.

Thanks.

Shalom,
Memo.

Dear Memo,

Yes, I've had a problem with white anglo-saxons all my life too!

Alex

Hello:

I have to clarify that my problem is not even remotely a racial one.

The Roman Church in the USA is amazingly diverse in her ethnic composition, and every one of us is responsible to one degree or another of the state of our Church today.

I really cannot see how can a racist vision of the world can be compatible with Christianity. And let me tell you that I think that the racists who are FOR discrimination are just as racist as the racists who are AGAINST discrimination.

We Christians have to understand that it doesn't matter how many generations we need to go back to find common biological ancestors, we are all brothers and sisters because we are sons and daughters of the One God and Father.

This makes ALL OF US immediate kin. It doesn't matter which particular hue our skins look like. It doesn't matter what our passports or birth certificates say.

We are all aliens in this world, and while we're here, we are all on our way home, without quite reaching it until we actually get out of this world.

Shalom,
Memo.