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Orthoman, I definitely agree with you on the 1204 issue. My previous post at the beginning of this thread speaks to that. I for one firmly believe that 1204 is a much more definitive date that the split between Rome and Constantinople became lithified. Rome's nonchalance in 1453 didn't help things, either. As a Christian of the Constantinopolitan tradition I share in the indignation and injury of all of these events.

But we will have to agree to disagree with the issue of the MP. I agree with Bishop Kallistos and do not think that in any way there were positive cirumstances for our church by forced amalgamation into the MP.

I know and am friends with some holy priests who entered the MP solely because they believed that they would have more freedom to minister to their flocks. Their motives are their own and they will have to stand before God. I don't judge them. I don't know if any of us can say what we would do in those complex circumstances. But as soon as the Church came out of the underground, they were back in the UGCC. Some of our priests were trained in St. Petersburg especially in the 1970s and 1980s. I am happy they were able to get some kind of theological instruction durinjg those difficult times.

But, unlike 1204, the events of 1946-present are of recent history and still painful reminders to many Ukrainian Catholics and Orthodox. There are gulag survivors still living in my own parish. In our minds, we had to live through 1204, when the churches were looted, prostitutes marched up to the holy places, etc. as we were of the Constatinopolitan tradition as received through Kyiv.

But in a way we had to live through that again in 1946, much more recently and much more vivid in the consciousness, when our churches were desecrated, turned into theaters, museums, public houses, whatever. And we saw the clergy from the MP come following the troops who took the churches, convents, and monasteries away from us and used many of the churches for their own benefit. As with 1204, the time between 1946 and the resurrection of our church will be a painful memory with us for many generations. May God have mercy on us all and send down his Spirit to warm our hearts to metanoia and forgiveness.

[I agree with Bishop Kallistos and do not think that in any way there were positive cirumstances for our church by forced amalgamation into the MP. ]

So then, since there were only two choices for the ROC - to comply or deny, and you are one of those who criticize the choice made, give me the positive circumstances for your church had the ROC denied Stalins request. There must be some, otherwise you wouldn't be criticizing or condemning the decision that was made.

[But, unlike 1204, the events of 1946-present are of recent history and still painful reminders to many Ukrainian Catholics and Orthodox. There are gulag survivors still living in my own parish.]

And I have people in my parish who are Lemko and are still trying to find their relatives who were 'ethnically cleansed' from their villages and their churches converted to Latin Rite Roman Catholic Churches during that exact same time period in areas under Polish rule.
But somehow that is not to be talked about. It is covered up and conveniently forgotten. After all you wouldn't want to anger Rome now would you? Instead, an action that was forced on the ROC but resulted in the saving of churches, the nourishment of souls, and the education of priests is considered to be more heinous than the explusion of people from their villages and homes and the take over of their parishes by people who are suppposed to be their brother & sisters within the Roman Catholic Church hierachy which they pay allegience to.

[But in a way we had to live through that again in 1946, much more recently and much more vivid in the consciousness, when our churches were desecrated, turned into theaters, museums, public houses, whatever.]

And the RO Churches weren't? Give me a break! That had been going on for 29 years towards the ROC!

------------

New Evidence reveals Soviets tortured, killed 200,000 clergy

MOSCOW [RNS] - Some 200,000 clergy, many crucified, scalped and otherwise tortured, were killed during the commnist era in the former Soviet Union, a Russian commission reported here November 27th, 1995. Another 500,000 believers were persecuted and millions imprisoned, exiled, and put in mental instutions under drug therapy. And 40,000 churches destroyed between 1922 and 1980, the report said.
"Clergymen were crucified on churches' Holy Gates, shot scalped [and] strangled," said Alexander Yakovlev, head of the commission for the Rehabilitation of the Victims of Political Repression which prepared the report for Russian President Boris Yeltsin. "I was especially shocked by accounts of priests turned into columns of ice in winter," Yakovlev continued, adding that the commission UNEARTHED DOCUMENTS SHOWING THAT AS EARLY AS 1918, VLADIMIR LENIN HAD ORDERED A CAMPAIGN OF 'MERCILESS TERROR AGAINST PRIESTS."
-------------------------
Are you going to tell me that all of the above were Ukrainian catholics and Ukrainian Churhes? Probably 95% or more were Orthodox Catholic churches, clergy, and people my friend.

[And we saw the clergy from the MP come following the troops who took the churches, convents, and monasteries away from us and used many of the churches for their own benefit.]

Same thing happened in reverse in the 16th century my friend. And did they deny your people entry to those churches, monasteries, and convents or the Sacraments? What you don't seem to recognize is the fact that the troops took the churches. The troops could have just a easily destroyed those churches as they were doing to the Orthodox.
Don't you think my Lemko family relatives saw the same thing in Galicia as they were being marched out of their villages and polish RC people coming in?

[As with 1204, the time between 1946 and the resurrection of our church will be a painful memory with us for many generations.]

As it will be for the Orthodox for a much longer period of time. All I ask is you stop being so selective and one sided in what you chose to remember.

[May God have mercy on us all and send down his Spirit to warm our hearts to metanoia and forgiveness.]

I will kneel down and recite that prayer anytime my friend.

A good article by Fr Robert Taft:

www.utoronto.ca/stmikes/theology/taft-kelly2000.htm [utoronto.ca]

My brother Orthoman, I firmly believe there were many holy Russians that perished under the godless Soviets and I ask for their intercession. I in no way meant to minimalize or neglect that fact. This was a difficult period for all persons of faith living in an oppressive Soviet society. There were many martyrs and confessors of the Russian church during this time.

And I have great respect for the Ukrainian Orthodox and ROCOR and others who either fled or resisted the Soviets. The Ukrainian Orthodox did not capitulate to the Soviets as a church and were forced underground as well. God bless them for that. Canonicity or non-canonicity aside, they were Slavic Orthodox who were victims of the Soviet state and lost much property and parishes to the Soviet-sponsored MP.

But after the 1930s the MP was LEGAL. The people could at least go into a public church and worship, even if there were fewer churches open and clergy were figureheads of the KGB. My church, along with the Ukrainian Orthodox and other non-MP groups, was ILLEGAL.

We Ukrainian Catholics were the largest single illegal religous group between 1946 and 1988 (that's Amnesty International's, not my words). Our priests and faithful were forbidden from public worship, were arrested indiscriminantely, were constantly targets of government harrassment. And still are in some places. We still have a different procedure, more expensive, more time consuming, and more difficult for applying for parish status than the MP does within Russia. The Russian Catholics still cannot officially open a parish, we have to borrow from the Latins or have liturgies in people's houses. Our priests were more tolerated under Tsar Nicholas than even today.

The MP compromised with the Soviet state, that is a fact. The current Patriarch is one of the "brightest" products of the KGB-era infiltrated MP. His actions and past speak for themselves and the MP. The MP church did benefit and continues to benefit financially and materially from the Soviet sponsored closing of other jurisdictions and handing them over to the MP.

This is not a matter of one-up-manship. I simply would like the MP to acknowledge its documented role in complicity with the Soviet government. Our Pope has been generous and heartfelt in his public acts of apology to various religious leaders of the world for acts perpetrated by or in the name of the Catholic Church. Patriarch Miroslav-Ivan also publicly apologized for uncharitable acts perpetrated by Greek Catholics while he was still alive.

In Christian charity it would be appropriate for Alexei II to make similar gestures. Instead, he continues his retoric as if he still had the full force of the Soviet government to back him up. He continous his diatribes of religious paranoia that the people of Russia are being led astray by proselytization, etc.

Why is this such a concern with him? If that's the case and he is genuinely worried about proselytization then he and his own priests are not doing their jobs, there's far many more of them than any other religious group. And I for one would be embarrassed to have a Patriarch with the skeletons in the closet of Alexei II as the head of my Christian church.

Maybe that's one reason why noone is going to church there anymore, they can see the relation of the church to the "old system"? I think the horrible treatment of the hierarchy towards socially-reform minded priests like Father Gleb Yakunin speaks for itself as well. As a good priest friend of mine told me during the Pope's visit to Ukraine, "Alexei brings better press for us than our own people".

Yes, it is an emotional issue, even more so with our people than 1204. We still have property from 1946 that we cannot regain, nor are likely to do so. I won't compare 20 or 30 million Ukrainian lives with a million or two Russians. Carnage is carnage and is not justified.

The MP still has many of those churches taken away from us, my friend. And that is why our resurgence in Ukraine is so profound. We're doing it largely without many of those churches, schools, etc. A catacomb and martyred church will always fluorish, and their prayers for our church will be efficacious.

Where's the beef? We have extended our hands but continue to be answered with the clenched fist of Alexei II. Does the Pope make an international clamor about proselytization when a new MP parish opens in Rome? Or other traditionally Roman Catholic countries. He does not, my friend, but welcomes them as brothers. It is sad but I expect nothing less from Agent Drozhdov/Patriarch Alexei II than his current behavior because he is, after all, a product of his training and upbringing.

You're right Brian, that is a great article by Archimandrite Robert Taft. He's definitely one of my heroes.

Orthoman:
Sorry to delay in responding but I got busy at work.


I'm not so good at the game of alternative history (and we can't do a control experiment), but I answered directly. Moreover, I conceded your points.

You ask, "would they be better off...", and further state: "the Ukrainain Catholic Church came out of it much better than if the ROC had truned their backs on them" And repeat similar this idea in several other posts.

Here's where we diverge. I reject the validity of this criterion for assessing the action of the ROC. It has no significance, since even the most obviously monstrous evil acts can result in some good ultmately occuring. It's easy to think of any number of examples. All's well that ends well? Only in fiction.

My view, as I said previously:
"The basic question is: over the years, were they acting as magnanimous caretakers as you imply, or were they in agreement with the liquidation of the GCC and the receiving of their stolen property."

I think that the Taft article (thanks Brian) makes the case very clearly. Moreover, you yourself state:
"To many of the Orthodox Catholics they were only getting back what was theirs for almost 600 years and taken from them by force."

Fine. This weird sense of entitlement among many Orthodox is evidenced by attitude toward the emergence of Greek Catholics in the former Communist states. It was not magnanimity.


How am I ignoring it? I am aware of it, agree to its horror, and have asked Alex to bring it up in his meeting with the Pope.
There is, however, a distinction to be made. The Poles, as a quick google search will reveal, are not in utter denial. Resolutions by the Polish Senate, proclamation by the Polish President, joint-declarations with the Ukraine government, and awards in Polish courts concur in condemning this action. I would love to hear an admission from the ROC that the Synod of L'viv and etc., fraudulent, and uncanonical. Why the perpetuation of the big lie in this time of religious freedom. Would you be willing to issue a complaint to the MP?

You write about 1204. I, recalling your earlier posts on the liquidation of the Greek Catholic Church post WWII, in effect ask you to stop being so selective and one sided in what you choose to remember. And so on.

djs

[Why is this such a concern with him? If that's the case and he is genuinely worried about proselytization then he and his own priests are not doing their jobs, there's far many more of them than any other religious group.]

It's not a matter of him or his priests not doing their jobs but of lack of funds and materials to do their jobs.
It's a concern for him because he can't compete with the both the financial and material wealth that can be brought in from the west to compete in proseltyzing against him and he knows it. His church has been weaken by 70+ of the most fierce persecution any Christian Church had to suffer. First he has to rebuild those 40,000 churches that were demolished plus restore countless others. He's got to restore the monasteries, convents, seminaries, and academies, plus provide & print educational materials to re educate the people in the faith. He doesn't have the access to publishing materials like the west can provide for their proseltyzers. Because his church has suffered so much its not a fair competition and he knows it.

[And I for one would be embarrassed to have a Patriarch with the skeletons in the closet of Alexei II as the head of my Christian church.]

Since you choose to put this on a more personal level, I will answer by giving just a brief reply and leave it at that since any specific answer will not only change the subject matter but start a flame war.
People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. I could answer that by bringing up the Ukrainian Catholic collaboration with the Hitler and the nazi's but that would only throw fuel and a fire that is already starting. Both our churches did questionable things to try and protect ourselves.

[Maybe that's one reason why no one is going to church there anymore, they can see the relation of the church to the "old system"?]

Don't believe all the propaganda you are being fed my friend. The Russian Orthodox Church is growing by leaps and bounds and what has been accomplished is nothing short of a miracle -

{In the Russian Orthodox Church today there are 128 dioceses (for comparison, there were 67 diocese in 1989), 19000 parishes (6893 in 1988), and nearly 480 monasteries (18 in 1980). These figures point vividly to an all-round revival of church life taking place under the primatial leadership of His Holiness Patriarch Alexy II of Moscow and All Russia.��

The pastoral service is carried out by 150 bishops, 17500 priests and 2300 deacons.�

The network of educational Orthodox institutions is directed by the Education Committee. At present there are 5 theological academies (there were 2 in 1991), 26 seminaries (there were 3 in 1988), and 29 pre-seminaries, which did not exist at all till the 90s. There are two Orthodox universities, a Theological Institute, a women's pre-seminary, and 28 icon-painting schools. The total number of theological students including those of the correspondence departments is about 6000 people. Educational institutions have been established to develop religious education among the laity. This important work is coordinated by the Department for Religious Education and Catechism.�

There is a variety of forms in which religious education and catechization of lay people are carried out, including Sunday schools at churches, circles for adults, groups for preparing adults for baptism, Orthodox kindergartens, Orthodox groups in state-run kindergartens, Orthodox gymnasia, schools, lyceums, and Orthodox courses for teachers of catechism. Sunday school has been the most popular form of catechism.��

In the field of charity the work is carried out on all-church level through the Department for Church Charity and Social Service.�

It is necessary to mention in the first place a number of successfully functioning medical programs. A special mention should be made of the Moscow Patriarchate's Central Hospital of St. Alexis the Metropolitan of Moscow. In the situation where healthcare is becoming commercial, this medical institution is one of the few clinics in Moscow which provide free medical check-up and treatment.�

A psychiatric service has been set up at the Mental Health Center of the Russian Academy of Medical Sciences. It gives free help to persons sent by parishes in the Moscow diocese.�

These are only a few examples of concrete work carried out by the above-mentioned Department.�

In December 1990 the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church decided to establish a church youth organization. This decision led to the First Congress of Orthodox Youth which set up an All-Church Orthodox Youth Movement as an official youth organization established by the Russian Orthodox Church. The tasks which the Movement set itself at that time were to attract children, adolescents and young people who sought their way to church in the fold of the Russian Orthodox Church and to unite groups of young Orthodox Christians under programs of social service, restoration of monasteries and churches, pilgrimages and contacts with young Christians in other countries.}�

A lot of accomplishment for a people that are not going to church!

We seem to be getting off the subjet which was the 'anathemas' which led to the sack of constantinople, which led to the 1946 Stalin edict, which led to this.

Every time I hear a Ukrainan Catholc criticize the Russian Orthodox Church for what they did I will defend them. Becuse I see things differnt than you do. I see it as doing the only thing they could do under the circumstances. I see the results which enabled those Ukrianian Catholics to retain a tie to a Church that fed them the cup of salvation and trained their priests. And the thanks they got was criticism.

[The MP still has many of those churches taken away from us, my friend. And that is why our resurgence in Ukraine is so profound.]

[Where's the beef? We have extended our hands but continue to be answered with the clenched fist of Alexei II.]

Maybe things would be different if you had honored the Quadruple agreement you signed along with the Ukrianian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, and Roman Catholics, where each parish would decide by vote where they wanted to be. Instead, you dishonored the agreement and used force -


[The reaction of the Russian Orthodox Church was nearly immediate. In
accordance with the initiative of the ROC a Quadruple Commission was
assembled in January of 1990. It was formed out of representatives of the
Moscow Patriarchate, Roman Catholic church, Ukrainian Orthodox church and
Eastern Rite Catholics of the Western Ukraine. Nevertheless, the work of
this Commission over the peaceful resolution of the existing disagreements
and ecclesiastical property issues (Lviv, March 7-13, 1990) was foiled under
a strongest pressure from the Ukrainian extremist political organization
named RUKh. The Uniates left the Commission and frustrated the negotiations
in the very beginning. The RUKh movement proclaimed that as soon as they
would "obtain the authority all temples will be confiscated from the
Orthodox and given to the Catholics of the Eastern Rite. Thus, there is no
any reason to continue a dialogue with the Orthodox Church."]

So once again, as in the past, a signed agreement was dishonored and force was used. the result of which is the present hatred and distrust.
And you can't understand why we Orthodox Catholics don't trust you or your adopted mother?

Now, since this topic seems to be getting a little out of hand, and I am a guest here, I will close this. I have already said everything I have to on the subject. And I will continue to believe as I do and defend the ROC regarding the 1946 edict. because I believe they did the only possible thing they could do under the circumstances.

OrthoMan

P.S.

One short reply to djs: If you want to talk about stolen property open up a subject regarding this. We can start with 1204 and continue on including the one of the most venerated Icons in both the east and west which in the west is called 'Our Lady of Perpetual Help' stolen right from an Orthodox Church in Crete by an Italian wine merchant where it was taken to Rome and presented to the RCC.

We've been waiting 800 years in some cases for the return of stolen property.

And, if the ROC had turned their backs on the Stalin edict in 1946 there is no doubt in my mind you would be in here condemning their action as unChristian.

You can consider the following website as an Orthodox Catholic answer to Fr Taft's statement -

http://www.ripnet.org/strategies/church/caught.htm


OrthoMan

[
You can consider the following website as an Orthodox Catholic answer to Fr Taft's statement -


This short website "bit" is hardly an answer to an extensive lecture by Father Taft in which he did NOT defend or propose uniatism in accordance with the Balamand Statement.
That lecture deserves a more considered and less polemic consideration.
Anyway, I don't think that we will ever agree about this. Ortho, I disagree greatly with your outlook and you do with mine obviously. It is better I hope to let things lie and move on to keep things at least civil. If we met, we probably would get along famously! Such is life!

Dear Orthoman,

Actually, I did check with a former MP priest, my grandfather, on this very matter.

There was no doubt but that the Ukrainian Catholics were considered as full-fledged members of the ROC in that period and so were communed as such.

It was against the law to belong to the Ukrainian CAtholic Church, and, 'canonically' speaking, it ceased to exist in Ukraine after 1946.

That RC's were communed on the principle of economy is absolutely true.

In terms of collaboration with the soviet regime, I don't think anyone can truly blame the ROC. The ROC had its great share of martyrs under communism and it was no stranger to martyrdom!

The RC Church wasn't exactly "overly vocal" in fighting the Nazi regime either, although Pope Pius XII and the CAtholic Church formally opposed Nazi ideology and mass murder.

So we cannot point fingers.

As for apologizing, that is nice, but what is an apology by one generation for another's sins really worth?

Let's forgive and get on with life, learning from each other how to love and increase in the stature of Christ.

Alex

[Let's forgive and get on with life, learning from each other how to love and increase in the stature of Christ.
Alex]

Alex, my Ukie friend. I couldn't agree more!

You, and I say this with complete sincerity, are one of the few people that understands me when I post in here and elsewhere.

I have been accused of being rude, crude, belligerent, and many other things I won't even repeat, because of my posts.

You, on the other hand, see thru it all and undertand where it all comes from. Which is a passionate love for the Holy Orthodox Faith Our Lord Blessed me with. I'm like a protective father that, even if I don't agree with things my children do, I will protect them and defend them. However, in this matter I do believe the ROC did what it had to do under the circumstances.

I think I told this story before. If so, excuse the repetition. But it explains just who I am.

On my trip to Russia in 1988 the first Orthodox Liturgy I attended was in the Cathedral in St Petersburg. The Cathedral was the largest church I had ever been in and yet it was wall to wall, shoulder to shoulder, people (communism was still in effect).
As I stood there all of a sudden I started to cry. The tears came and they wouldn't stop. An old Baba was standing next to me watching. She leaned over and said something to me in Russian. One of the women in our group said - "She is asking you why you are crying".

I said the following to her -"Tell her they are not tears of sorrow but tears of joy. Tell her I cry because never in my life have I felt the presence of God so strong as I do now standing here. Tell her that God hasn't forsaken the Russian people. He is here stronger than ever. Because he is here in the hearts and minds of all the Baba's that are here with her.
And tell her that I cry with joy because I realize I have returned home. I have returned to the roots and the very core that makes me what I am today. Even though I am extremely proud to be an American, I have the heart and soul of a Slav who is devoutly Orthodox. I now understand what makes me what & who I am."

Every word of that was the truth. Baba started to cry and kissed my hand. I gave her my prayer book which was in Russian and English. By that time it was time for Communion. Because of the crowd, we were led up to one of the Communing priests. Apparently, because of the shoulder to shoulder crowd there were others that overheard what I had said. Because as I started to move my hand was being kissed and as I looked into the eyes of some of these Baba's I saw the image of God looking back at me.

Thats why I get so upset when I hear comments that the Russians aren't religious and their 70+ years of suffering is minimized.

OrthoMan

[ 07-24-2002: Message edited by: OrthoMan ]

Dear Orthoman,

Well, the Russian Church has had more martyrs than any other under the Soviet Yoke and has truly suffered more!

The lives of the Russian new martyrs bears this out to anyone who wishes to read them.

The Soviets just hated their own in a way they did not others. I can't explain it, but there you have it.

My grandparents (if you've heard this story before, just feel free to jump in and stop me) were pleased to offer assistance to Russians escaping the Soviet terror.

They always told me about the deep piety of the Russians, their cultured personalities and mannerisms, in short, a totally different "pair of galoshes."

And anyone who has visited Russian churches and seen with what genuine piety Russians and others there pray, cross themselves etc. It is all very heart-felt and touching, to the point of tears!

Who can not feel deep compunction over the New Martyrs, yes, including the Royal Martyrs/Passion-Bearers!

And St Seraphim of Sarov? St Seraphim Zvezdinsky and St Seraphim Viritsky? Blessed Matrona of Moscow?

I have always admired your deep spirituality and devoted witness to authentic Christian tradition and Orthodoxy, Brother in Christ, Bob!

Would that we all take your example whether we be Orthodox, Eastern Catholic or Roman Catholic.

God has blessed you with the gift of witnessing to the fact that we can never take our faith or Church for granted.

To do that is to truly sin against the Holy Spirit!

May God bless you and continue to inspire you in your Life in Christ to Whom, I know, you have drawn countless others as well.

Alex

Bob,

You state: "I'm like a protective father that, even if I don't agree with things my children do, I will protect them and defend them."

I understand fully, I only ask that you remember that Latin and Eastern Catholics feel the same and this is why they decry past injustices done to them and some that still continue. No one is without guilt. All must admit their part in it and stop un-Christian behavior towards their brothers and sisters in Christ.

Your story and experience is equally shared with those Greek Catholics behind the Iron Curtain, who after many years of oppression, are able to worship according to their conscience in freedom.

In Christ,
Lance

Dear Lance,

As always, you make your point!

As an Eastern Catholic, however, I do feel that we sometimes go out of our way to cast unnecessary aspersions on the Russian Orthodox, AS IF to paint them with the same brush as the soviet persecutors of our Churches.

And that is grossly unfair and, simply put, untrue.

Bl. Basil Velichkovsky himself alluded to this in his writings and resolutely condemned this as an attitude unbecoming Eastern CAtholics.

This is what my OrthoBuddy Bob is referencing and I agree with him.

At no time has Orthoman EVER denied (but has affirmed) the fact of martyrdom among the Eastern Catholic Churches or their persecution by the Soviets including their use of the Church to do so.

He's a great guy all around. And you know why?

'Cuz he DA ORTOMAN!

Alex

Alex,
i will have to take your longer knowledge of Bob into consideration and I am certainly sorry if I have come off as personal. It is an issue that necessarily stirs passions because it deals with human rights and the denial of them.
As I told Bob, we disagree greatly in our outlook. I can live with that
Yes, let us move on as Orthodox and Eastern Catholics and serve Our Lord. That is a mandate that goes beyond all the "Churchy" things we disagree on!!
Brian

Orthoman:

In terms of art and artifacts, I'm with you all the way. I feel the same way, for example, regarding, the British pirates: with some encouragement they may return the booty taken from colonies and shamelessly displayed in their museums. But I am not an enthusiast of the politics of victimization; so I won't open a thread on it.


For the third time: I am not so critical the action taken by the ROC, per se. I think you are right that they had no choice, they were under duress, and criticism of their action is unfair. But it must also be admitted that ulterior motives were plainly revealed by actions and attitudes during the restoration of religious freedom, and since. I enjoy reading your notes about the revival of the ROC, and wish it well. I also wish that they and you could respect, if not understand, our love for our Greek Catholic church.



If your source is correct, then your statement is plainly false. Did the Uniates quit the negotiations, or did the stay, sign, then dishonor a signed document? From what I've read, it's the former. I think they were right to bolt, regardless of what Rome and the others wanted. Recovery of stolen property is a matter of principle and law, not majority vote. I would equally oppose any vote to decide the proper ownership of the icon of Our Lady of Perpetual Help.

djs