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William writes:

"Being formerly a Roman Catholic, I have a basic respect for many of their teachings. This is even though I don't believe in them under the same terms and understanding."

Dear William -

Thank-you for a most illuminating post. I felt I was missing something really basic, and I was indeed. The posters were looking to answer not only the basics of sin, but the relationship of punishment, both now and in the hereafter, in the context of indulgences, as a kind of comprehensive
theory or accounting, and in the process seem to have simply left out repentance, which may have been a simple oversight, or perhaps it comes in at another 'level' of the account.

For the Orthodox, sin and repentance are the core focus, out of which the rest will follow, I should think, and when we look to the utter sinlessness of Christ, and the utter punishment He suffered, then we tend to see ourselves as not at all trying to avoid worldly pains, and especially unjust ones, for we see their value, as being of Christ, if we are in pain for being of Him Who is without sin...

So that the load of our worldly agonies, in Orthodoxy, seems tied to the grace given us to benefit thereby, even as Christ lived... And the more holy the saint, the greater the load, and the more blessed his works... And therein lies great mystery, in seeing the world seemingly backwards, but in reality seeing it from the perspective of the nous of Christ, and understanding it therein...

I read in Brianchaninov that until we can within ourselves recapitulate the sin of Adam, and indeed do so, and literally take responsibility for all the sin that flows from that responsibility, we are not yet through the gates of repentance... We still have far to go... So that any punishment from the world that we receive, we deserve... Which is, I should think, the theological ground of our confession at every Liturgy of each of us being the first among all sinners...

Thank-you again for your help - I was really having a hard time 'getting it'...

geo

Dear George:
In an earlier post regarding indulgences and purgatory you ended by saying that it sounds so "secular". Doesn't it also sound "unhealthy?"

As someone who attended Roman Catholic school for eight years and was taught about purgatory and indulgences from an early age, they have for many years represented God to me as vengeful and distant. The teaching that God loves me could only penetrate my head, not my heart. Perhaps it is an unhealthy thing to teach children, they grow up feeling there is no way they can ever please God, no way for God to love them. No matter how hard you try, it is not good enough.
Punishment awaits you in the after life; despair
in this life.

I am Byzantine now and read mainly Orthodox theology. Only in Orthodox theology has the teaching that God really does love me penetrated my heart. (I apologize if this is too personal a posting for the forum)

The difference between the West and East regarding punishment and repentence may also have roots in the difference between them in their teachings on original sin.

In the West, we carry the guilt of Adam. We can never overcome that guilt.
In the East, we do not carry the guilt, but the fallen nature of Adam. By the grace of God we can overcome our fallen nature and restore our natures to what God intended (deification?).
Orthodoxy offers hope, while we, of course, always remain repentant.

This is how I see it from my own reading, I have not had as much education as most of you gentlemen here on the forum. This is my personal experience of the East and the West.

(I apologize to William for continuing this thread in the midst of the papacy thread)

Orthodox at heart
denise

Dear Geo,

I have a deep respect for what you have just written. Thank you. I'm happy to say, I've seen similar expressions of belief about repentence in Roman Catholic writings as well.

Dear Denise,

No problem staying on this topic. We'll get back to the other topic eventually . The Spirit blows where He wills. I respect your experince and totally believe what you are saying. Ofcourse everyone's experience is different. Perhaps this is why the Spirit has inspired so many different expressions of the true faith: so that all may find a home within God's Church?

Anyways here's a few quotes which might clarify the Roman Catholic position on original sin from their official "Catechism of the Catholic Church."


404. "How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam 'as one body of one man'.[St. Thomas Aquinas, De malo 4, I.] By this 'unity of the human race' all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of ORIGINAL SIN is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.[Cf. Council of Trent: DS 1511-1512.] It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why ORIGINAL SIN is called 'sin' only in an analogical sense: it is a sin 'contracted' and not 'committed' - a state and not an act."

To view the context, please visit http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/visible4.html#ORIGINAL

405. "Although it is proper to each individual,[Cf. Council of Trent: DS 1513.] ORIGINAL SIN does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence'. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases ORIGINAL SIN and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle."

In Christ's Light,

Wm. Der-Ghazarian

Dear William
Thank you for your kind reply.
I have had a copy of the CCC since it first came out 7 or 8 years ago.

Because these topics are complicated and mysterious, it is difficult to explain them to children. Unfortunately, as children we don't always infer what the real message is, and the way we first heard it, or think we heard it, stays with us too long.

For me, the West just wants to explain too much.
Too complicated. It often seems that they (theologians) have an idea and then search scripture to support that idea. That is going backwards. I often think they stretch the point that the scripture verse is making, and am left wondering what their idea, their explanation, has to do with that scripture verse.

The East seems to start with the scripture, and then explain it, going forward to the idea.
I am left with a clear understanding of the scripture verse. Less complicated, yet still mystical and spiritual.

May God bless everyone on this board, which I read much much more than I post. I am impressed with how clearly most of you can write and develop your 'arguments', yet stay amiable with each other.
denise

Bishop Raya in his "Face of God" says it is part of eastern tradition that praising God also erases our sins. Isn't that beautiful! We should all raise our hearts and minds to Him and thank Him and praise Him "constantly".
denise

Dear Denise,

I think both sides of the Church, East and West, have their strenghts and weaknesses. I thank God for them both.

"...praising God also erases our sins. Isn't that beautiful! We should all raise our hearts and minds to Him and thank Him and praise Him "constantly". -denise"

Yes, it is beautiful and beautifully put. Thank you.

In Christ's Light,

Wm. Der-Ghazarian

Dear William
Yes, the West has its strengths also.
My beloved St John of the Cross and
St Francis of Assisi, among so many others.
denise

Dear Friends,

I see we're having a "purgatory" of a time here . . .

The Orthodox understanding of "penance" is certainly not that of "punishment" at all, but a medicinal spiritual healing of the soul.

That being said, if anyone can indicate how wearing heavy chains and performing the ascetical feats of the saints is NOT punishing . . .

Ultimately, it is a question of semantics with respect to "punishment." Certainly, RC theologians understand penance in much the same way today, even though the juridical, Roman law concepts of punishment remain.

Orthodox ascetics take second place to no one in sleep deprivation, exhaustion from long hours in prayer and fasting, and other "healing" penances .

One writer once said this, "Whenever we think God doesn't love us and that we are not lovable, that is when we have to do penance to "mortify" ourselves of such thoughts."

The Latins and the Greeks will have different ways of conceiving these things - that's unavoidable.

Ultimately, are the differences so great so as to justify the separation of Churches!

NOT!

Alex

Dear Friends,

Yes, praising God erases our sins, as does meditation on the Passion of Christ, a thoughtful recitation of the Our Father with feeling etc.

In fact, when we pray and stay with our prayer for a bit longer, we can feel God speaking to our hearts within us, forgiving us, blessing us and smiling on us.

It's then when our spirits can leap for joy and we can stretch out our arms to receive the Divine Embrace.

Alex

Denise writes:

>>>Dear George:
In an earlier post regarding indulgences and purgatory you ended by saying that it sounds so "secular". Doesn't it also sound "unhealthy?"<<<

They certainly sound un-Orthodox, and for an Orthodox Christian to embrace them would indeed be unhealthy, but I as well certainly cannot judge my western brothers for having beliefs to which I do not ascribe, so that I would not say they are unhealthy across the board.

>>>As someone who attended Roman Catholic school for eight years and was taught about purgatory and indulgences from an early age, they have for many years represented God to me as vengeful and distant.<<<

Protestant children report the same - One guy [an Orthodox convert from strict Calvinism] said "We were taught that there were the saved and the damned, from the beginnings, and I knew for sure that I was not one of the saved, and eternal punishment and damnation were awaiting me."

>>>The teaching that God loves me could only penetrate my head, not my heart.<<<

We Orthodox often chide our Protestant Brothers for being head theologians, rather than heart ones! The interesting thing that I came across reading Romanides and Hierothos was the idea that the epistemological foundation of theological knowledge is repentance and askesis, illumination of the heart, and the theoria [vision] of God [theosis]... So that outside this foundation, relying on study and intellect, we are but spewing forth spittle into a really strong wind...

>>>Perhaps it is an unhealthy thing to teach children, they grow up feeling there is no way they can ever please God, no way for God to love them. No matter how hard you try, it is not good enough.<<<

Orthodoxy has a whole and loving way of teaching children self denial without much in the way of getting them freaked out in their fear of an unassuagable God of punishment and vengeance, or of being all that overbearing and punishing of them...

>>>Punishment awaits you in the after life; despair in this life.<<<

Well, it justifies punishment in this life, and despair for the afterlife! Authoritarian rearing of children is a tough nut...

>>>I am Byzantine now and read mainly Orthodox theology. Only in Orthodox theology has the teaching that God really does love me penetrated my heart. (I apologize if this is too personal a posting for the forum)<<<

I should think that Orthodox writings would form much of the core of ByzCath readings.

>>>The difference between the West and East regarding punishment and repentence may also have roots in the difference between them in their teachings on original sin.<<<

I do not know much about the western teaching of original sin. It seems to involve inherited guilt...

In the West, we carry the guilt of Adam. We can never overcome that guilt.

Well, Protestants think that the guilt is lifted in the acceptance of Christ, often at an altar call, as one's personal Lord and Savior...

In the East, we do not carry the guilt, but the fallen nature of Adam. By the grace of God we can overcome our fallen nature and restore our natures to what God intended (deification?).

That's about right... We do not inherit the guilt - We earn it! [If you are running short, lemme know, I got lots extra!! ]javascript: x()Smile

>>>Orthodoxy offers hope, while we, of course, always remain repentant...[snip] This is my personal experience of the East and the West.<<<

Well, the west offers hope too, just differently framed in words, and those words have a history of giving authority problems to kids, with a lot of acting out and rebellion. I remember the movie, Rebel Without a Cause [Dean], and this struck a huge chord in the American psyche... The whole anti-authorian motif in the west finds its roots in the authoritarian culture, and the abuses thereof, from which it emerges...

In Orthodoxy, the value of obedience is stressed, and not the imposition of authority, and this difference alone seems to me pivotal...

>>>Orthodox at heart<<<

Me too!

geo

Dear Friends,

Actually, Purgatory is more about God's love than not.

Protestants often berate Catholics for believing in a "third place."

And yet, how could anyone with anything but the gravest of sin after they die go to hell?

Purgatory is about cleansing of our many minor faults before we enter Heaven wherein nothing unclean may exist.

One Catholic theologian puts it this way, that after we repose we see Christ as He truly is and this fills us with remorse for our lack of complete surrender and service to Him.

This "burning" is what purifies us just before we are united to Him forever.

The problem mentioned with the Catholic Church also exists in all liturgical Churches, including the Orthodox.

I've spoken with converts to Protestantism and Pentecostalism from Orthodoxy who say much the same thing as was mentioned here about Roman Catholicism - the distance from God, the ritual "hoops" one is obliged to jump through etc.

That is all a caricature, to be sure. It does point to the fact that solid catechesis is needed in both Churches.

Ultimately, both Churches pray for the dead. The Catholic Church has a more definite idea as to the 'place' where the souls that are neither in heaven nor in hell are and where our prayers can be efficacious for them.

The Orthodox Church does not. However, there have been Orthodox theologians in history that have accepted Purgatory. The Catechism of St Peter Mohyla, in its original form, did admit of the existence of Purgatory.

The Greeks rejected this part of the Catechism, but Met. Peter Mohyla would have none of it and the doctrine of Purgatory was taught in the Kyivan Orthodox Church in his time.

Believe it or not . . .

Alex

Dear everyone,
I apologize for sounding so negative about the
church the other day . After I posted I recalled the Church is still the Body of Christ and deserves more respect. (See George, I accrue enough of my own guilt, I don't need any of yours :rolleyes: .)

Yes, in the west we carry the "guilt", and how does one ever get away from that?

Of course, whether east or west, we are so infinitely small compared to God that no matter how much punishment or repentance we undergo,
it can never make up for all our failings.

I think Vatican II was trying to get away a bit from all the "hoops", trying to get us to change inside and not just go by a bunch of rules. But I miss the old church.

So I was trying to figure out what it is that I miss from the "old" Catholic church. Strangely enough, it's the structure we had going to Catholic school. And the nuns. I miss the nuns. They expected the best from you. And life revolved around church and school. There was structure. We have few Catholic schools here
and so life doesn't revolve around the church like it used to. Sigh. Is any of this the church's fault? Nope. I envy those of you who live where there are Catholic churches on every other corner with a school attached.

Sometimes it takes going and learning somewhere else (orthodoxy) and then coming back to the
cradle to appreciate what we have. Let us breathe with both lungs!

The East and the West share a tradition of
a constant remembrance of God (Brother Lawrence and St Theophan the Recluse are two that come to mind). So let us try to constantly remember God in our hearts and try to see Him in all the little moments of our lives as we honor Him by keeping His commandments.

If we can do that, then perhaps Purgatory won't even be an issue after all.

God bless all of you
denise

Dear All,

Coming back to this thread is really enlightening.
Thank you all for your contributions.

So many of you have developed the theology behind the teaching on purgatory in the Latin Church. I really am in awe of the knowledge of our teachings presented here.

Denise asked how we get past focusing on guilt. I think that Alex has touched on this part of the theology. The fire of Love, that burning ("punishing") Love because we find it so difficult to surrender to it is the key.

In the Latin Church, the Alleluia verse sung before the Gospel at Pentecost says this:

"Come, Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of your faithful, and kindle in them the fire of your love"

It is Love Who is transcendent Who cleanses us as we open ourselves to allow Him to fill our hearts. That is the heart of repentence in the Latin Church.

The experience of deep love even on the purely human level models that transcendent love. It sometimes hurts, doesn't it, in its intensity and in what it makes us do that we might not have done without the love. It is in that framework that I understand penance and even purgatory.

It is what I've learned in the Latin Church and what I hear in the teachings of the Eastern and Oriental Churches discussed here. I think the wording is different, but the transcendent reality the words describe is the same.

Steve

[ 08-26-2002: Message edited by: Inawe ]

Thank you George, Alex and Steve,

Steve,
St Paul says somewhere, I can't remember the words exactly "Perfect love knows not fear".
(maybe someone can recall better than me).

Will ponder what you all have so kindly posted, thank you.
denise

"That is all a caricature, to be sure. It does point to the fact that solid catechesis is needed in both Churches."

I agree with Alex. I've cariactures of both Churches which don't deal honestly with that Church's authentic teaching.

"In the West, we carry the guilt of Adam. We can never overcome that guilt."

I don't think this is correct. If some of their theologians have taught this, I'm not sure. But the official Catechism of the Catholic Church says just the opposite. Let me quote it one more time:

To view the context, please visit http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/visible4.html#ORIGINAL

405. "Although it is proper to each individual,[Cf. Council of Trent: DS 1513.] ORIGINAL SIN does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence'. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases ORIGINAL SIN and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle."

In Christ's Light,

Wm. Der-Ghazarian