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.....kai parakalo, kalos anthropos!

(Is this like Japanese bowing?)

FG

Dear Free Greek,

Elantheria A Thanatos!

Yes, and I do believe in bowing and kissing ladies' hands.

It's the European thing to do, no?

Alex

This Indian likes to do it, too...oh yeah, baby!

Dear OOD,

First let me ask forgiveness if what I have written has offended you in any manner. in my comments about the old calendarists that I have interacted with, I have indeed found very angry, bitter, and judgemental people. I did as you advised,"Thomas, if you find any Church filled with hatred, run, don't walk, because they have lost everything." I did and I have run back to the patriarchal church (by the way, I am not under the EP but rather I am under the Patriarch of Antioch). If you have found an old calendar Church that is full of joy and the love of Christ, I rejoice with you.

As to the "heresy" of Ecumenism, in my studies which I summarize below, I do not see a Heresy if these points are maintained. The points are directly from various Patriarchal Documents found on the Wed sites of Our Orthodox Patriachs. I will tell you my understanding of what Patriarchal Orthodoxy says we are to do when we pursue ecumenical discussions and actions with the Heterodox Christians:

1. THE TRUTH OF CHRIST IS PROJECTED as understood and taught by the Holy Orthodox Church. We believe that all men must accept this Truth. As such we discuss with the heterodox their beliefs and present Orthodox dogma and teachings without apologies.
2. To the Orthodox Christian, this truth is found in Orthodoxy, all other churches would need to be reconciled to this truth by presenting their beliefs and a comparison to the historical preschism church beliefs to be the source for union.
3. The Patriarch of Alexandria has stated that The restoration of unity amongst the Churches will be achieved only when full communion is restored. This communion is based upon unity of faith in accordance with the common experience and tradition of the ancient Church. All attempts to restore this unity in the past have failed, and in many cases have served only to reinforce dissension, firstly, because they did not respect the precondition of equality within dialogue, and secondly, because they based the dialogue on self-interest, which is alien to the pure unity of the Church.
4. The listed purpose of these discussions have specific areas of interaction:
---By the acceptance of a uniform calendar for the celebration of the great Christian feasts at the same time by all the churches (there is no reason why that could not be the Old calendar).
---the exchange of brotherly letters on the occasion of the great feasts of the churches' year as is customary on other exceptional occasions.
---close relationships between the representatives of all churches wherever they may be.
--By relationships between the theological schools and the professors of theology; by the exchange of theological and ecclesiastical reviews, and of other works published in each church.
----By exchanging students for further training between the seminaries of the different churches.
----By convoking pan-Christian conferences in order to examine questions of common interest to all the churches.
----By impartial and deeper historical study of doctrinal differences both by the seminaries and in books.
----By mutual respect for the customs and practices in different churches.
--- By allowing each other the use of chapels and cemeteries for the funerals and burials of believers of other confessions dying in foreign lands.
--- By the settlement of the question of mixed marriages between the confessions.
---- Lastly, by wholehearted mutual assistance for the churches in their endeavors for religious
advancement, charity and so on.

This is the definition offered by the Patriarchs of the Orthodox Church.

By the way, as I have no personal computer for e-mail and forum discussions I have to handwrite resources not on the internet to share, so it may be next week before I can provide additional documentation your requset. I fear that I may not satisfy you for I , like the Patriach of Alexandria, see that any reunion must be based upon the preschism Orthodox Catholic Church where their is a common belief between the various churches. We are of course able to use the apologetics of the post-schism church fathers but must remember their voice has no common acceptance among those we speak with and must rely upon the Holy Spirit speaking through them to touch the heterodox heart and spirit to true unity.

Dear Free Greek,

Forgive me if you felt that I "label all Old Calendarists as unloving fanatics" what I said was,"Sadly, I found that the group that I was a member of and the other groups that I observed were full of anger and judgement. They lacked the love that I found in the Gospel of Jesus Christ." As such I left the group and entered into Patriarchal Orthodoxy. I know individuals who had a great love of the Holy Trinity in their life and are in these small groups but sadly the groups I had personal contact with, had few of these people. Many, I met, felt they had been betrayed and could for several hours talk on the heresies of the Patriarchal Church and anyone affiliated with them and yet had problems explaining the love, peace of spirit, and joy they had in their own old calendar jurisdiction.

You are right, Free Greek, that those in the historic Patriarchal Churches must avoid condemning them as the Russian Orthodox church did with the Old Believers. But likewise, should not patriarchal Orthodoxy expect brotherly love from them as well? In my jurisdiction, I have never heard a disparaging word about the old calendarists said in Church or in fellowship. if one were to come to the church with his/her letter from his priest or baptismal certificate or chrismation papers, my priest would commune them as an Orthodox believer. I fear such would not be the case if I arrived at their door.

For any that I have offended, caused hard feelings, or anger to arise I ask your forgiveness. I have only tried to present the case of a large portion of Orthodoxy who follow Our Lord through the ministry of Right-Believing Patriarchs throughout the world whose voice is drowned out by the smaller numbers but loud proclamations of the old calendarist movement.

Your brother in Christ,
Thomas

[ 02-07-2002: Message edited by: Thomas ]

A uniform calendar is a great idea. But, if I may play devil's advocate, when the text says "there is no reason why that could not be the Old Calendar", why can't it equally say "there is no reason why that could not be the New Calendar"?

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Mor Ephrem,
You are correct,It could be the new calendar or for that matter any other calendar approved by the whole Church. I noted to the bretheren who were old calendar that possibility because the matter is not settled according to the Patriarchs yet. A view of Patriarchal Orthodoxy notes that there is not Unity on the Calender except as it pertains to the Paschalion and the date for Pascha in which both old and new calendar observant Patriarchal Churches agree that Pascha will be celebrated on the same date for all Orthodox (except for Finland, where the date is by the government and law).

Your brother in Christ,
Thomas

[ 02-07-2002: Message edited by: Thomas ]

Christ is in our Midst!

Hello Thomas,
Since I am a fellow Antiochian I have study the issue of the calendar. It's kind of baffling especially within a New Calendar Church like mine in Cicero, IL we experienced the Weeping Icon of the Blessed Virgin Mary. She has been experienced weeping in an OCA Church as well not far from my Church. She has also been experienced in the Old Calendar Churches as well. I don't know how a Calendar can divide so many of us apart especially when we witness to miracles occuring in our Churches. I don't know and don't think the miracles had in mind the Calendars. New or Old Calendars are finite designs that are of this world . I wonder what God Almighty's Calendar is like! I could see God laughing at us and not making us worthy to be Fools for Christ.

Rum O,

I hope all is well.

Having a weeping Icon for so long you must by now be quite an expert on the subject.

I was hoping you could outline the traditional way the Orthodox interpret (not that they do much interpreting) the miracle of weeping icons.

Hi OoD,
I am doing well. It's always to good to hear from you. In regards, to being an expert I don't think I am qualified. I don't know that there is a traditional way of interpreting the miracle of weeping icons. If you have one I would like to hear from you. You can go to my Church's website for further info at www.stgeorgecicero.org [stgeorgecicero.org]
I think the miracle of weeping icons supersede time and space. There is a hidden meaning to these wonderous icons. I think there occurences are to keep us in check with the spiritual world yet to come. We get caught up of being in the world that I think God intervenes to give us a reminder that He is with us and that we should be with Him. Looking forward to you chatting again.

Dear Rum and OOD,

My next door neighbour is Antiochian Orthodox and he gave me a copy of this miraculous Icon that was consecrated with the Tears.

I think this icon, as well as the miracles associated with Holy Communion, belong to the "negative" category of miraculous occurrences that come from God.

By this, I mean that God does show His displeasure through miraculous events, indicating to us the need for repentance.

I believe the Weeping Icons are just that, the Most Holy Mother of God asking us for repentance in the face of our sins and those of others.

Just as Christ came to us in His First Coming through the Mother of God, so too will He come to us the Second Time through Her, but in a different manner.

Alex

RO, Alex,

During the service of Pascha, when our priest was reading the Gospel outside the doors of the Church, a blue flame engulfed his arm starting with his hand, and worked it's way up his arm. It lasted about 15 seconds.

Our priest took notice and slightly lifted his arm to see it better.

Everyone in the congregagtion saw it. It was quite an astounding miracle, although we don't talk about it to much anymore for several reasons.

[ 02-08-2002: Message edited by: OrthodoxyOrDeath ]

Dear OOD,

Yes, I believe we must always be on the look-out for miracles, since God does them when we least expect it.

When I was growing up, my brother and I slept on the third floor of our home.

The third floor was clearly troubled by demonic forces including voices speaking very quickly to each other in the night (I thought it was a visiting uncle or something), noises and then a culmination.

One night, the lights went on, furniture started to move around the room and, lo and behold, all our clothing from the drawers started to fly in the air!

My brother was petrified, sobbing uncontrollably and crawled on all fours outside the room, leaving me alone . . .

I slept in front of the Icon of the Mother of God of the Passion, an icon my grandparents gave my father when he left home during the war.

The clothing came to rest on me, methodically covering me from neck to foot, but my face was not covered and I could breathe freely.

The phenomena stopped. I got up and thanked the Mother of God for protecting me against evil, evil that was later fully repelled through exorcism.

I still keep this Icon with me and it seems that Her Eyes come alive when I pray before it.

Alex

Alex,

That is a fantastic story. Could it be your Guardian Angel that placed the clothes on you? Just a thought, but in any case, quite touching.

I feel people are fascinated with demons but in a very unhealthy way, and the demons love that. As St. Nicodemos says, there are demons all around you all of the time, studying you, staring you straight in the eye, trying to figure out a way to get you to sin or to enter into you. This is why Orthodox make the sign of the cross over their mouth when they yawn. Scary stuff.

On a lighter note, babies, (I have a 6 month old) can see Angels because they are totally pure. So whenever my little one smiles for no apparent reason, I also smile.

Dear OOD,

Congratulations, Daddy! Could you pray for one for me?

Our veneration for our Guardian Angel is extremely important and I love the Orthodox church rule that includes a daily Canon in the Angel's honour.

I believe our Angel speaks to us daily, if we would but hear.

Several years ago, I was out on our deck preparing a barbecue on a clear Sunday afternoon with my wife.

Looking up, I saw a classic UFO, a grey round ship with a metallic-like band around it that was hovering in mid-air on its side. When it hovered, the sun glistened on its metal (or what looked like metal). My wife would not look at it, told me to turn away.

It was a clear day, no clouds and this thing was dangling close enough for a good inspection.

I began to pray and the thing moved away, on its angled side until it disappeared in the skies.

A few months later, walking my dog, I came across a man with whom I had a conversation (my dog introduced me to many neighbours I would not have otherwise gotten to know!).

He said that he had filled out a report about a UFO in the neighbourhood.

I said nothing and asked him to describe it. He described it to a "T." He said he followed it around for about three hours and then it came to rest above "this house" (my home, but I didn't tell him that).

He sent the report to Ottawa and it has been noted, along with my home address!

I have NO doubt that that thing was a demonic phenomenon. Even scientists at NASA who have studied these things since 1946 say that they are not visitors from another planet. Those who go on these craft, the so-called "Encounters of the 3rd Kind," always ask the green men inside why they are here.

The answer is always the same, "To confuse people."

And there is only one power that does that . . .

Alex

Alex,

YES! And how many people share your position about this? Very few. There are the "believers", there are the disbeleivers, and there are the indifferent, what else can one expect in a post-Christian society?

But how many people see these things with Spiritual eyes like you? Very few indeed. We must always see everything with our spiritual eyes because it is always the Demons who seek to confuse us, but they can only do so when we look at things with our worldy eyes...