www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Is it possible to breath with two lungs?

Dear Dragani,
Please take it easy. Perhaps this forum is way over your head. Your perception of what you see deceives you into believing that people like myself are out to attack others. This is not true. If I have given this false impression forgive me. I believe in speaking honest and universal truths that are within Orthodoxy. There is no salvation outside the Orthodox Church. I hope I may do my duty by speaking truths and not compromise it for unholy traditions of men. I pray to reach out to Roman and Byzantine Catholics and inform of what is true and what is not true. At times when I am engaged in dialogue I may learn about something that I did not have full or little knowledge of. This forum is a great place to share truths and ask questions where people can learn and begin to research information from. It is no secret I am Orthodox. I am opposed to Catholicism but that does not prevent me from listening to what Catholics have to say about their beliefs and thier responses towards my beliefs. Therefore, please relax. I am not out to get you or anyone into trouble. If you have any questions follow the biblical verse of "ask and you shall receive".

In Christ,
Robert Sweiss

'No salvation outside the Orthodox Church'?????

Do the terms 'narrow minded', 'fanatical', 'extremist', or 'fascist' mean anything to you?

Thankfully, God isn't as narrow as you are. Salvation is in God's hands, not those of the extreme right-wing Orthodox.

I hope you enjoy looking down on billions of souls in hell from your exclusivist place in your 'heaven'.

Get a life.

What gospel are you teaching here ?

Where in the whole of Holy Tradition is taught that salvation can accur outside of the CHurch?

I am sorry, but that is a new gospel which we are to reject!

It is true that in 1990 in Barr, Switzerland, representatives from the Roman catholic, "world orthodox" and Protestants drafted a 2,500 word statement on "Religious Plurality", and in that statement they stated that they find a "need to move beyond a theology which confines salvation to the explicit personal commitment to Jesus Christ."

So your statement doesnt surprise me, it is totally in line with the 'one world religion' of the anti-christ>

Timothy, reader

Yes, our Savior, saints and holy martyrs were narrow-minded according to your standards!

>>>Is it just me, or is this forum being overrun with very unkind Orthodox,

who enjoy attacking and belittling us?

I must ask: if these were Roman Catholics attacking us in such a cruel

manner, would we allow them to continue with their tirades?<<<



Perhaps we need to create two new folders: one entitled "Surly Orthodox Rantings", the other entitled "Ultramontanist Delusions". That ought to take care of most of the fringe traffic.

Dave Ignatius wrote:

<< Thanks for a peek at your research! I would agree that there is some growth (I hesitate to say development) in the Church's understanding of the faith. >>

IMO doctrinal development is just about the only topic worth discussing between Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics. It stands behind our entire understanding of dogma and behind the entire rejection thereof by the Orthodox.

<< The canon of the NT is a discernment of the Apostolic era (I hold to a first century date for the composition of the NT books). It is not possible for new books to be added to the NT canon. >>

True, but the actual formulation of a formalized canon was the work of centuries. The entire canon was by no means received "everywhere, always, and by all."

<< The Dormition has some rather early evidence that is quite explicit (see the volume _On the Dormition of Mary_ by Brian Daley, SJ, published by St Vladimir's Seminary Press). >>

I would be very interested in hearing more about this. Nevertheless, I sincerely doubt that this evidence is of such a nature that it would prove that the Assumption was believed "everywhere, always, and by all."

<< Some classical Orthodox apologetics (polemics?) would deny any growth in understanding in the Church's faith. I think one should be careful not to attempt to freeze the work of the Holy Spirit in the Church. Having said that I think we should also be wary of establishing dogmas that have no clear pedigree to the early Church. >>

How early? Anytime in the era of the undivided Church? This is a problem I have with Protestant and Orthodox apologetics at times. They do indeed seem to make an arbitrary cut-off date and then if they don't find some explicit evidence for a given dogma prior to that they disbelieve it on principle. But that approach comes back to bite the user because, if the dates are indeed basically arbitrary, there is no reason not to move them earlier and earlier (as the Protestants do), calling anything that does not conform to earlier usage a "corruption." What I'm trying to do with papal infallibility is show its organic connection with what is implicit in the patristic tradition. For those who insist that the words "papal infallibility" must by used by the Fathers then no explanation will do. But then they've set a standard that ends up undermining their own position on other doctrines.

<< Again, Vincent, I appreciate your initial explanation of your apologetic on papal infallibility. >>

Thanks.

<< I'd like to hear more (perhaps others here would as well) >>

Apparently not ;-D.

God bless,

Vincent


[This message has been edited by Vincent (edited 10-27-1999).]

Dear in Christ,

Now before this gets totally out of hand, I need to remind the contributors of this forum about this forum. The title here if "East-N - West" . It is NOT "East -NOT - West". It was meant as a forum for the discussion of relations between the Church of the East and the Church of the West. I am supposing that that means the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic and/ or the Eastern Catholic Churches. This Forum was never meant to become a tool for proselytizing one Church over the other.I have seen triumphalism here from both extremes, Roman and Orthodox. I must say that this is not the Forum for that. If anyone here believes that there is no room for the other to exist in God's Creation then I strongly suggest that you find another Forum more in line with extreme views. If you have strong feelings, but are willing to "listen", not just talk then you are welcome. I will not allow anyone to continually post aggrieving messages, nor to be personally insulting to other members.

One thing that we ALL need to remember is that we Orthodox, Roman or Byzantine are guests in someone's home. It is an unfortunate sideaffect of the Internet to feel aloof and immune with regard to common courtesy. So if you feel that you can continue a friendly, and even spirited conversation in my "living room" , then please continue: if not, I invitre you to leave.

unworthy servant

Father Kyrill
Moderator

It saddens me to see such a lack of tolerance, understanding, and love between people. I feel that I am in the middle of a personal and religious crisis with no earthly home. I live in northern LA and attend RC Mass as often as I can. BC Divine Liturgy is not available. I often feel unwelcome in Roman Catholicism because RC's do not consider me to be Catholic. Recently, I have been attending a weekly course on History of the Mass. The priest knows that I am "Eastern Catholic," but I do not think that he knows what it means. Tonight he suggested that the Holy Father is the leader of the Roman Catholic church, not the Catholic church. He also stated that Orthodox Christians were catholic just like the Eastern Catholics, but with a different leadership. I gently asked him to clarify, but again, no reconition of my Catholic Faith. He said that a RC cannot receive communion in an "Eastern church" and vice versa. I sing in the Choir, and this is where I worship. Do you know how it feels to be excluded from this community? I recently returned from a trip to Rome where I was blessed with the opportunity to hear an audience with the Pope and be in his presence. He appeared very ill, but his will was truly awesome. I felt his holiness and profound love, just sitting in his presence. It is so heart breaking to feel such allienation upon return to the USA, when all I want in life is to worship the Lord and serve him.

I log onto this site to feel some connection with my Catholic brothers and sisters, and again I feel saddened after I read through several topics of discussion. I am struck by the hostile tone and lack of attention to the important purpose of which we all have. It again gives me a feeling of allienation. One wonderful thing which I have learned in my class about the history of the Mass: it all started with Jesus when he said "Take this and eat it, this is my body, do this in memory of me." So, Christ gave us his perfect life, and he gave us the Eucharist; but he did not give us a mass or a liturgy, that developed over time. Things changed, developed, stabilized, changed, etc. The celebration of Christ is dynamic, that is not to deny the beauty and holiness of the traditions and ways created by the many holy people who have defended the church, or their Christianity. But, can we not accept that we all (RC, BC, Ruthenian, Ukranian, Melkite, and Orthodox) have the Holy Eucharist, and The Gospel, and that our ways of Celebration are DIFFERENT, not better.

(Consider the tradition of Latin as a language, does that really make the RC church more orthodox, or holy? The language was adapted because Pope Callistus said put the mass in the language of the common people. Latin was considered a vulger language spoken by the common people, Greek was the language of fewer, perhaps better educated and wealthier people. This tradition, which developed to reach the common people, continued for many centuries despite the eventual inability of the common people to understand latin.) Vatican II went back to the 4th century and again said "put the celebration in the language of the common people."

My point is that the celebration is dynamic, it developed and develops, and often this is a good thing. Many may detest the idea of mixing of tradition, but consider that many components of the Roman mass developed in Gaul and in the East and moved to Rome. If we do not want to change the Byzantine Liturgy that may be the right path, as the Holy Father has asked us to adhere to our Eastern traditions. Perhaps this will help lead to healing the Schism with the Orthodox Churches.

However, consider that no one is right, we are different, and celebration of the Eucharist (Mass or Divine Liturgy) will continue to develop traditions.

Is it really so difficult for us to accept our small and beautiful differences, and is it possible for us to remember that foremost Christ asks us to Glorify God and to love one another.

Is there any inspiration out there for this wearied Byzantine Catholic who seeks only to please the Lord in any way that he wishes. God Bless You ALL, Sharon

Sharon,

Don't be too discouraged by your experiences in your local RC parish or here on this forum. For the last millennium, to be Catholic meant to be Roman Catholic. Even our Byzantine Catholic brothers and sisters bought into this first class / second class idea (some on this forum still buy into the idea that West is best and that we are really Roman Catholics with a cabaret license to celebrate a funny liturgy). In recent years (and especially since Vatican II and during the reign of Pope John Paul II), much progress been made in our understanding of one another. The official dialogue between East and West has passed from one of just getting to know one another to actually discussing the issues with keep us apart. Roman Catholics are far more likely to be aware of our existence than they were a generation ago, although they still do not know who we really are. The progress may be much slower than many of us wish, but it is progress.

You are privileged to have the opportunity to travel to Rome to see the Holy Father. Pope John II has been a steadfast leader of the Church. He has been strong enough not just to lead the Church but even to invite the East to help him redefine his role as pope so that it may be acceptable and better serve a reunited - Orthodox and Catholic - Church.

Your observations about the Eucharist are most appropriate since it is the Eucharist which must be seen as the symbol of full communion.

Sometimes the discussions here become a bit strong. But that's ok. In order for anyone (myself included) to really learn and understand another it is necessary to break down walls. Byzantines and Romans, Orthodox and Catholics, each come to the table already judging one another when in reality we are just beginning to learn to see Christ in one other. This is progress - even if it is not packaged as pleasantly as we would like.

You mentioned that you live in Northern LA. You might want to check out Byzantine parishes within a reasonable commuting distance (I know that Los Angeles county is quite big). St. Mary Cathedral is in Van Nuys and there are about 6 or 7 Byzantine Catholic parishes (Ruthenian, Melkite, Ukrainian, Russian, etc.) in or near LA. But it is quite possible that you are exactly where you should be and that you are being called to provide witness and plant a few seeks among the Roman parish you worship at.

Dear Moose
Thank you so much for your kind reply. I appreciate your positive words of encouragement. I live in Northern Louisianna, sorry for the abreviation. I am 3 1/2 hours from Dallas, and 5 hours from New Orleans. God Bless you, Sharon

Dear Sharon,

Please know that my prayers are with you. I am Latin Rite but I too crave a liturgy offered in "spirit and truth" which because of my circumstances I basically cannot have. We live in rural WI; there is no Byzantine Catholic parish in WI and it is a long drive to anything resembling a traditional Catholic Mass (and I don't mean Tridentine or even Latin; just distinctively Catholic would be fine with me.)

It is a time for us to suffer; let us bear it well and to the glory of God. But please take courage; the new Spring is coming.

Hi Sharon!

I'm Sharon, too. Now we have two Elias-es and two Sharons. Everybody pay attention, or you won't be able to tell the players without a scorecard.

I'm in Columbus, Ohio. We occasionally have a gentleman from LA attend with us. I think there may be some preliminary rumbling about looking into beginning some type of Byzantine activity in the New Orleans area, but I have no recent info, and that's at the other end of the state.

Meantime, hang in there. Grit your teeth, mutter "thank You, Jesus," and try to embrace the opportnity to educate. A ribbon-tied copy of Orientale Lumen might make a dandy Christmas present for your current pastor...

Cheers,

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Dear Vincent and Sharon M.
The Lord be with you! I know that he is with me, I was searching for someone to understand me. I also was wondering why there were no (or few) entrys from women. Then, behold, a woman who shares my faith and my name! Hmm, dare we start a topic that focuses on the role of women???!! Perhaps we are a wealthy resource waiting for acceptance.