www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Universal Empire

Late antiquity and early medieval history is very relevant to our changing times. Then, as now, the world is re-inventing itself. Discoveries in Eastern Europe have debunked some of Gibbons assertions about the role of barbarians and internal moral decay causing the collapse of the West. The transformational power of the Cross illuminated the hearts of man through redemption, but also did have political and military consequences. The Church provided the center of gravity for 'kinder and gentler' Empire. I have wondered how an ancient Eastern Roman thought about the very dynamic boundaries of Christendom over the centuries. One contemporary account considered the physical boundary of the Empire to be of less consequence than the spiritual frontiers; in essence, a Universal Christian Empire. Does anyone know if the ancient Byzantines ever considered that the Empire was the Kingdom of God on Earth? Not necessarily official doctrine, but even popular sentiment?

Interesting points that I had not given much thought to. I have read that by the time Western Rome fell, it was a collection of peoples with no common culture or language. But I have also read that St. Augustine may have caused some of the tendency of the middle ages to focus inward since only the next world mattered and this one was of no consequence. That may be a bit unfair to St. Augustine. I hope some of the historians on the forum contribute to this.

Dear Friends,

I do believe that the Byzantine Church believed in the symbiotic relationship between Church and State symbolized by the two-headed eagle, something that came to characterize Orthodoxy with its emphasis on monarchy (one of the many things to admire about Orthodoxy! ).

Apart from the religious obligations the Church demanded of its faithful to scrupulously observe, it didn't care what else they were up to and so wide freedoms became the norm in society.

The oppressive feudal system was also tempered by the introduction of many religious holidays by the Church - days that became days of rest and relaxation. The Church used its state-approved powers to the benefit of the people and that is an historical fact.

One historian I read way back when said that "much can be forgiven a Church that exalted the cult of the Virgin Mary so highly!"

So great this cult became in medieval times, that one monk had a vision of Christ Who told him, "Tell the people that My Mother if very pleased with all the praises they honour Her with. Also tell them not to forget to praise Me once in a while . . ."

Alex

According to Gibbon, in the second century of the Christian era, the Empire of Rome comprehended the fairest part of the earth, and the most civilised portion of mankind. The frontiers of that extensive monarchy were guarded by ancient renown and disciplined valour. The gentle but powerful influence of laws and manners had gradually cemented the union of the provinces. Their peaceful inhabitants enjoyed and abused the advantages of wealth and luxury. The image of a free constitution was preserved with decent reverence: the Roman senate appeared to possess the sovereign authority, and devolved on the emperors all the executive powers of government. During a happy period (A.D. 98-180) of more than fourscore years, the public administration was conducted by the virtue and abilities of Nerva, Trajan, Hadrian, and the two Antonines.

In the twenty first century of the Christian era, the people of North Africa, Asia Minor, and Middle East live in grinding poverty and tyranny. Fanaticism and the complete absence of hope inspires suicide attacks on the general population.

In Isaiah 19:16-25, it states that Egypt will be saved in the last days. What about Turkey, Syria, and Israel? Will the light of Hellenism and Christianity ever shine again for mankind? Will God restore Constantinople to his people, or is it lost forever? Are we being punished, or did Christendom fail to defend her people? Are we failing now?

I am encouraged by the talk of re-unification of the Church but I wonder what the effect of Turkey joining the EU will be.

Captivated by the catastrophic epic about the collapse of the Empire, I have read the following books and would like recommendations on additional material.

History of the Later Roman Empire - J. B. Bury
Augustus to Constantine - R. Grant
When Jesus became God - R. Rubenstein
The Antonines - M. Grant
Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire - E. Gibbons
The Christian as the Romans saw them - R. Wilken
Augustine of Hippo - P. Brown
The Rise of Western Christendom - P. Brown
Poverty and Leadership in the Later Roman Empire - P. Brown
The Roman History (Augustus)- Cassius Dio
Meditations - Marcus Aurelius
The Twelve Caesars - Suetonius
The Later Roman Empire - Ammianius Marcellinus

Dear Alex,

I love your statement about Jesus saying the people should praise Him once in a while.

As for the holidays, or holy days, we certainly should be appreciative to the Church for them...although it might have been a carry over from the Greco/Roman world. The Emporors retained their power by having festivals and circuses.

I can't help but feel, that one of the main causes of the Protestant reformation, was that the Germanic people were too many to be converted easily. They could not adapt to the Greco/Roman culture that formed the Church, and so they rebelled and eventually made the Church over in their image.

Which is fine, but the 'spirit' of dissent remained with them. They first lost their respect for church authority, and today, their 'fruit' is heresy. . At least in some of the denominations.

Back to holidays. Did you know that Carnegie gave his workers only one day off a year? The fourth of July.

When showing a friend of his from Scotland his 'utopia'. The air was so black and dense with pollution from his steel mills, that his friend said, "I have now seen hell".

Zenovia

Constantine moves the seat of the Roman Empire from Rome to Byzantium. The City becomes his namesake, that is, Constantinople and together with the Empire they are known as the New Rome, the Second Rome, the Eastern Roman Empire, Byzantium, and carry the magical name of Valentia.

The Fourth Crusade finds Byzantium sacked and occupied by Western invaders from 1203 to 1261.

The Byzantine presence survives during that period by the rise of two Empires. One is founded in Nicaea by the Lascaris Dynasty and the other thrives in Trebizond under the Comnenus Dynasty.

In 1261 Nicaean superiority recaptures Constantinople and Byzantium lasts until 1453 when the City falls to the Ottoman invaders.

Trebizond fares better and remains in power until 1461 when it too falls to the same invading force.

There was also the cultural city of Mystras, capital of the Despotate of like name, nestled on the first slopes of Mt. Taygetos and adjacent to Sparta. It lasted from 1348 to 1460 when it too succumbed to the Turk. The aggregate of all these final events marks the true Fall of the Roman Empire�yet, only in a geopolitical sense and not ever in a socio-cultural sense. Witness the enduring Western Civilization,.

The front line defense of the Western world thus fails and the Asiatic non-Christian presence comes face to face with Europe at a crucial geographical juncture. This problematic actuality casts long shadows on dubious alliances attempted by Westerners with non-Europeans in that area.

The escape from Byzantium to the West of a large number of intellectual and cultivated people brings about the Renaissance of Europe. Is an expanding consequence of that, in Western terms, the Discovery of the Americas which establishes a NEW BYZANTIUM? Or should I still be looking East?

I believe there have been prophecies that the Muslims will convert. The Jews will also, but they will be the last to do so. Also one RC prophecy said that the Jewish Christians will not worship the same way. I believe the prophecy was referring to the Messianic Jews.

As for Hellenism and Christianity, being Greek, I can assure you they are not one and the same...although it was the Hellenic concepts of the Fathers that helped 'express' our Christian beliefs. It is only our Lord's Spirit that could truly enlighten one...never a language.

As for Constantinople, I recall reading a prophecy by a byzantine monk stating to someone, "do you see that tribe called the 'Rus'. In the last days, Constantinople will be their's.

Now that can be taken in different ways. It could mean that the Patriarch will be Russian. I really don't think it will be militarily conquered. So many millions of Turks cannot be thrown into the sea. But they can convert.

As for Turkey joining the EU, it is a problem. I know they are continuously using scare tactics, such as having their jets flying over Greek and Cypriot air space, and withdrawing only when forced to by Greek jets. Yet if they didn't use those scare tactics, would Greece ever allow them to join?

Even worse is the fact that they have made demands on the EU constitution. They say they will not become a member if the constitution states that Christianity is the basis for their civilization.

Another problem is that if they join, millions of Turks will enter Europe. But that's not the worse. Knowing that the Muslims are a religious/political system, with a belief in conquering, controlling and converting other lands, will Turkey really close it's border with it's neighboring countries.

I read that Turkey will be an enormous financial burder on the EU, yet if it does not join, all the might of it's military, (thanks to us), will be used on Greece. They want control of half the Aegean. Also they will unite with nations such as Iran, and form a greater threat. One that will threaten all of Europe.

Now the other side of the coin is that should they join, they will have to conform to EU regulations, and the possibility of evangelization will exist.

No matter what, I have read that it will take a minimum of ten years for them to become a full member, and anything can happen by then.

Zenovia

Removed post

The U.S. has yet to learn that because someone is not our enemy at the moment, it doesn't mean they are our friend. We have armed many groups and countries and later regretted it. You would think we would learn something from our mistakes. I have heard speculation that the Marian apparitions in Egypt are some kind of sign of future Muslim conversion. Who knows? It's possible, I guess, but we would only know for sure after the fact.

I believe the apparitions appeared at a time when the Copts were being persecuted. I am not certain, but if my assumptions are correct, the prayers must have been overwhelming. Our Lady by appearing, would certainly have saved them. The Muslims do believe in her.

Hopefully the day will come when the Egyptians, who were Christian at one time, will become so again. What a plague on the world is Islam. I believe Saint Francis, when meeting Saladin (I think he was the Sultan at the time), told him to become a Christian. The response to the Saint was, "do you see the soldiers around me? If I were to do so, they would kill me."

Zenovia

I have wondered if the 'outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth' is a spiritual place or perhaps it is the darkness of Islam. Look at the genocide in Africa and ongoing threat to Europe! God has blessed Americans with such great liberty and freedom, and it saddens me that some citizens are ungrateful. My love for America 'tempts' me to think of our country as a great mercy from God and a sort of new Byzantium.

True liberty, like true love, comes from God. Paul, the Apostle spoke about his liberty in Christ. Our nation was founded on Biblical principles, among others, and our American liberty is our liberty in Christ. We are free from the bonds of sin. This is accomplished through grace and not the law. We must take care that our liberty never be a stumbling block to our brother. (see 1 Cor 8:13).

Identifying the US with some sort of divine kingdom is a very common Americanism; one frought with hubris and error. America was a signpost in history's march toward secularism, and those who hold that Americans are, in Lincoln's words, an almost chosen people commit a type of idolatry. Remember Christ said "My kingdom is not of this world." Our [relative] American liberty is NOT our liberty in Christ; to identify these two things is beyond absurd.

We know that God deals in the affairs of nations.

Matthew:
"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, `Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Daniel:
"O king, the Most High God gave Nebuchadnezzar your father kingship and greatness and glory and majesty; and because of the greatness that He gave him, all peoples, nations, and languages trembled and feared before him; whom he would he slew, and whom he would he kept alive; whom he would he raised up, and whom he would he put down. But when his heart was lifted up and his spirit was hardened so that he dealt proudly, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and his glory was taken from him; he was driven from among men, and his mind was made like that of a beast, and his dwelling was with the wild asses; he was fed grass like an ox, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, until he knew that the Most High God rules the kingdom of men, and sets over it whom he will ."

Christ taught extensively about the Kingdom.

Matthew:
"The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sewed good seed in his field: but while men slept, his enemy came and sewed tears among the wheat and went his way. But when the grain had sprouted and sprouted a crop, then the tears also appeared. So the servents of the owner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sew good seed in your field?' He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' The servents said to him, 'Do you want us then to go and gather them up?' But he said, 'No, lest while you gather up the tears you also uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, 'First gather together the tears and bind them together in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.' "

Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And his disciples came to him saying, "Explain to us the parable of the tears of the field." He answered and said to them: "He sews the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world , the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tears are the sons of the wicked one. The enemy who sewed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. Therefore as the tears are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all things that offend , and those that practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

If the kingdom starts small, grows, requires a purging of evil people, and is in the field (which is the world), then there must be a physical component to the kingdom. This kingdom may yet to be realized, but it must come for the scripture to be fulfilled.

"God has blessed Americans with such great liberty and freedom, and it saddens me that some citizens are ungrateful. My love for America 'tempts' me to think of our country as a great mercy from God and a sort of new Byzantium.

True liberty, like true love, comes from God. Paul, the Apostle spoke about his liberty in Christ. Our nation was founded on Biblical principles, among others, and our American liberty is our liberty in Christ. We are free from the bonds of sin. This is accomplished through grace and not the law. We must take care that our liberty never be a stumbling block to our brother. (see 1 Cor 8:13). "

How true! One only has to visit a foreign country to realize how blessed we are, and the freedons we now enjoy.

I remember reading in the newspaper, prior to our involvement in the first Iraq war, a Catholic priest was wipped in public for trying to obtain wine in order to celebrate Mass.

I don't know about anyone else, but my antennae are up...