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Agreed - and they have been for a while

"Your kingdom come. Your will be done in earth, as it is in heaven" (Matt.6:10)

"And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people" (Matt.4:23). See also Matt.4:12-17; 9:35; Lk.8:1.

"And he said to them, I must preach the Kingdom of God to other cities also: for this reason I am sent" (Lk.4:43).

"For a child is born to us, a son is given to us; and the government is upon his shoulder. . . that the government may be increased and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it through justice and through righteousness from henceforth even for ever" (Isa.9:6-7, - See also Lk.1:30-33.)

"But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow to it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us from his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore" (Mic.4:1-3). See also Psa.72:8-11.

And all this is leading - where?

Okay, Gen, I'll take the bait. You string together a lot of Scriptures that are open to numerous interpretations. You seem to think it self-evident that they indicate an earthly kingdom that is identified as the Kingdom of God, and further, that this Kingdom is somehow incarnate in the USA. Is that a fair summation of what you are saying? If so, may I ask just what sort of Christian you are?
From what little you have said this sounds like some sort of Calvinist Restorationism, not the more otherworldly, spiritual Byzantine and Latin Christianity that we are more familiar with.
You are new here, and are confusing some of us. May I ask you to lay your cards on the table?
Forgive me if I have misunderstood anything.
-peace to all, Daniel

I have no agenda other than to discuss scripture and history with an open mind. I do not want to persuade anyone of anything. I have considered the idea of America or Byzantium being the 'Joseph' nation in biblical prophecy (Gen 49). The problem with Byzantium, is that it was defeated by the enemy. It is more popular to consider that America is 'Babylon' or 'the Great Harlot', but I do not think this is reasonable. Some say that America is not in Biblical prophecy. That seems unlikely given our historical footprint to date. So I am just trying to put the pieces together in what seems to be a vacuum of ideas.

Jesus placed a lot of emphasis on the 'Gospel of the Kingdom'. We are instructed to pray for the kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven . This suggests to me that there might eventually be a dual kingdom. Jesus used the term 'kingdom of heaven' as well as 'kingdom of God'.

I apologize for any offense that my postings may have caused. I do not take the position of 'being correct' but rather would like to hear what people have to say about Byzantium, America, or the Kingdom of God.

I am intrigued by the statements of some of my Protestant friends, who tell me the Roman Empire will be re-established according to the Book of Revelation. Of course, Revelation is the original garbled message in the Bible and there's a lot of disagreement on what it means. Some say it's prophecy, others that it describes events in early Christianity through symbolic messages. If I remember correctly, it was accepted into the canon of scripture rather late because the early Christian authorities couldn't agree on it. But about that new and improved Roman Empire. Know anything about that?

Futurism Theory
The European Union evolves into an 'anti-Christ' revised Roman Empire whose leader blasphemes God. Gods people are scurried away into heaven - also called the rapture. Seven years of tribulation occur.


Historical Approach
There were four kingdoms to supplant Israel's leadership position (Daniel 2):

1. Babylon - gold kingdom symbolized by the winged lion.
2. Media Persia - silver kingdom symbolized by the bear
3. Greece - bronze kingdom symbolized by the winged leopard
4. Rome - iron and clay kingdom symbolized by a beast

The four horsemen in Revelation describe the progression of the forth kingdom, Rome.

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering and to conquer.

And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

The four stages of the Roman Empire can be described this way.

1. Rome conquers Europe, North Africa, and Asia Minor and establishes Pax Romana
2. The boundaries of the Empire are set and a period of internal strife begins
3. Legal and economic reforms of Diocletian, Constantine, and Theodosius grind the Empire to a halt
4. The dark ages and then feudalism imprisons humanity

During the final stages of the fourth kingdom, as the world begins to recover from darkness, the Kingdom of God will be established on Earth. It is to start small and grow large (the mustard seed parable). It will not be holy in the beginning, but will require cleansing (wheat and the tears). There will be conflict between the enemies of the Kingdom and the children of God.

I believe Futurism about as much as a solid gold Jerusalem falling out of the sky (I don't). Futurism specifies that God stopped the clock on Daniel's 2300 symbolic days. The final 7 years (tribulation) are reserved and God restarts the stop watch (so that no man knows the time of the second coming of Christ). I think this is a major stretch and do not buy it.

There are elements of the historical interpretation that make sense to me. I think that looking at the prophecies as a continuous history is a far better approach than futurism.

Gen- I am not offended by anything you have said; i am only offended when people get personal in their arguments, which occurs far too often on this forum.
I am, however, curious about where you are coming from; may I ask again what sort of Christian you are? Fear not, Protestants are welcome here so long as they are not hostile, which is pretty much the same standard that applies to Latin Catholics or Orthodox...
peace, Daniel

I am not Catholic. I was raised a Christian Scientist and then my step mother became a minister at a Unity church. When I was about 14 years old, I started attending a non-denominational charismatic church. I did this by myself and was quite devoted. It was there that I accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior and learned the fundamentals. Looking back, I suppose some of the spiritual manifestations at that church were more emotional than anything else. I am now 43 years old and my faith has been strong at times, but I have also wavered.

I have Catholic friends and have been to Mass many times (but never took communion there). I am not attending services anywhere now as I find most dogma to be like putting God in a box. Human ego is especially grotesque when it is wrapped in piety and self-righteousness.

I am knowledgeable of the various anti-Catholic teachings. The only negative opinion about the Catholic Church that I hold is a matter of history and that is the Inquisition. On the other hand, I am impressed with Rome's clarified doctrine on hell. Jesuit journal Civilta Cattolica stated:

The Religion News Service reported that a Vatican-approved editorial published several weeks ago in the Jesuit journal Civilta Cattolica agrees with the pope's latest pronouncement. The editorial explicitly pronounced, "Hell exists, not as a place but as a state, a way of being of the person who suffers the pain of the deprivation of God" (Los Angeles Times, 7-31-99). The pope said eternal damnation is "not God's work but is actually our own doing." Only a week earlier the pope stated that heaven is neither "an abstraction nor a place in the clouds, but a living, personal relationship of union with the Holy Trinity. "

Such a statement on hell is strikingly similar to that made by Billy Graham several years ago in which he was quoted,

The only thing I could say for sure is that hell means separation from God. We are separated from his light, from his fellowship. That is going to be hell. When it comes to a literal fire, I don't preach it because I'm not sure about it. When the Scripture uses fire concerning hell, that is possibly an illustration of how terrible it's going to be-not fire but something worse, a thirst for God that cannot be quenched. (Time magazine, 1 1-1 5-93)

These are statements that make sense to me. What value is there in scaring people into obedience? We were given free will and we must surrender it back to God. There is benefit here and now when we cry "abba father". As far as the afterlife goes, I am not sure, and I doubt if anyone is. I do know that we are commanded to love God with all of our mind and love our neighbors as ourselves. This is plenty of instruction for most situations.

I do have a weakness for the Catholic ceremonies and traditions. It is a dream of mine to attend Mass (as a visitor) in the Hagia Sophia. Maybe one day Turkey will return it to the Church.

I have read the Bible about 5 times and have a fair grasp of Scripture. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. (Mat 18.20) In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God (John 1.1). When we discuss scripture, it is only logical that He is with us.

My motives are good, but I have opinions like everyone and I may accidently step on some toes.

Dear GenStilicho,

I'm sorry that I took so long in giving you some of my own references. Some of the books listed, might be what you want. I have other books, but I'm not too sure if they cover exactly what you want.

THE AGE OF FAITH - Durant
THE FIRST CRUSADE - Runciman
MYSTRA - Runciman
BYZANTIUM - Cyril Mango
THE GREAT BETRAYEL - Bradford
A DISTANT MIRROR - Tuchman
GLORY OF CHRISTONDOM - Carroll
CHRONICLE OF THE
CRUSADES - Villardouin
THE MEDIEVAL VISION - Erichson
MEDIEVAL GREECE - Cheetham
ARAB HISTORIANS OF
THE CRUSADES - Gabrieli

Carroll gives a good perspective from an RC point of view, and Runciman gives a good one from an Orthodox viewpoint.

Durant is also a great historian, and I only wish I could get Toynbee's works. I have heard that he based all of history on faith.

Zenovia

Dear Gen Stilicho,

I have my own interpretations of revalation. I believe that the White horse is the spread of Christianity. The Red horse is the spread of Islam. The Black horse is the spread of our present economic system, and the pale horse is the destruction we have brought on the world through our arms, and will continue to bring on the world.

Actually, I have always interpreted the horses that way. Now as far as 666 is concerned, I figured that since in Hebrew seven means complete and on to eternity, the number six must mean something incomplete.

As for America, I have not realized until recently, how blessed this nation is. You know, it's something I always heard from my immagrant father, who remembered walking barefoot in winter, but it took me so many years to fully realize it myself. Strange how we Americans, always tend to look at the 'bad' within us, and not at the 'good'.

As for prophecies, I have read that one RC saint stated that the land across the sea, that is made up of many different peoples, will, because of their arrogance, be destroyed by storms, and earthquakes, and split in two parts. It seems the Gulf of Mexico will extend to the great lakes.

In order for that to happen though, there has to be a rise in sea level...unless, of course, the Mississippi basin sinks.

Well, I hope that time is a long way off. But we must remember we are morally responsible for what our media sends out to the worldZenovia

Gen- thanks for clarifying; and welcome to the Forum. Your discourse didn't sound typical for the Byzantine and Latin Christians who frequent the forum.
I am tempermentally adverse to speculation about the Book of Revelation; I saw way too much weirdness in my brief evangelical phase.
I do think for any earthly kingdom to identify itself with the Kingdom of God is the height of arrogance, and I am a hearty dissident to any form of Americanism. We do have a relative freedom in this country, albeit a freedom under attack from within, but it is a freedom that is identical to license, a freedom to sin, not a freedom from sin. Any survey of our history will yield an abundance of evidence for the argument that this nation is steeped in sin and blood [anyone remember Hiroshima? Nagasaki? the Civil War? our wars of aggression?]
-peace, Daniel

Daniel,

Your point is well taken and I respect your opinion. I only encourage you to look at the good in America as well as the evil. There can be no doubt about the existence of both. As far as Revelation goes, I believe it is to be an open book. At the end of the book of Daniel, the prophet is commanded to seal the book. Revelation starts off with the process of opening the seals. They are both end-time prophecies and I think we are to 'keep the book open', even if it is hard to interpret

.

Zenovia,

Thanks for the list. You have broadened my horizons. I will be ordering at least one of these books tonight.

We should pray for America. I don't want to get into an ugly political debate, but is anyone afraid of Kerry and far Left agenda as I am. Supreme Court Justice Rehnquist was diagnosed with cancer today and he is the lead conservative judge. I have heard that the next president will make more nominations than any in history. This will, in a large measure, shape society for a decade or two.

Dear Gen Stilicho,

I am petrified of Kerry becoming president. If Bush is re-elected, (hopefully, our Lord will listen to all of our prayers), we might have a chance to reform this nation and society.

I recall the call by religious leaders, to take heed of what was going on twenty years ago. What exists in our media, would have been unfathomable even five years ago. We are totally desensitized.

We don't realize that what we turn off on TV and the computor, is not being turned off by the formative minds of 12, 13, and 14 year olds. What they see in the media, is now reality to them.

We are also responsible for what we ship out to the world. I recall one prim and proper foreign place, now having pornographic post cards (from America of course), in broad daylight; right where young children congregate.

May our Lord forgive our ignorance and indifference to what we have wrought.

Zenovia