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Catholic Gyoza
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I guess that "under" is an ambiguous term. I mean "under" like subjugation. I don't think I'm subjugated by Benedict XVI. Actually, I'm not subjugated by anyone, except my wife! wink

I've actually never met any of my current bishops. My former bishops I've spoken to once or twice, especially when discerning my vocation. So I don't think I'm subjugated by them.

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We can make any of these terms look negative if we really want to. "Under" does not imply a negative, it means to me a connection with that person. I think we do get carried away with looking for the perfect descriptive phrase to define 'us'. We end up looking very silly to people who read these postings and imply we are very uncertain of who we are and our place in the Catholic Church. I have heard many times various Byzantines describe themselves, or others as being 'under' the Omophorion of Bishop X.

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Christ is Risen!

Quote
Originally posted by MizByz1974:
Quote
Originally posted by Carole:
[b] How about "Misunderstood Eastern Catholic" or "Red-headed Step-Child of the Catholic Church".

That's what it feels like a lot of the time at least.
I like "red headed stepchild of the Catholic Church." It IS appropriate... frown

God bless,

Karen [/b]
All I have to say is:

Oυτις ημιν φιλει ου φροντιδα | Nemo Nos Diliget Non Curamus

:p

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I am what I am.

I do not need anyone's approval.

I choose who I am and who I wish to be.

Those who do not like my choice: their opinions do not matter. My mind has been decided as to what is best for me.

If those in power make my choice difficult for me, either they must give way, I must find a way around them, or I must leave their company.

I am the best judge of what is best for me.

Trinity

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Trinity,

I suppose that could be either a deeply spiritual or a deeply selfish mantra. It is either formed by years of Western pettiness or Eastern mysticism. Do you mean it to be helpful or do you mean it as a way to isolate oneself from others including God or do you mean it is as oneness in Christ. I suspect the way you answer will mean as much as what you answer. You aren't referring to something like this are you?

"i.e. that I am the source of their authority and validity, that only a God who is simply a
projection of my own ideals can be a worthy 'God' for me. But when the
self is absolutely its own master we end in despair. "On closer examination it is easy to see that this absolute ruler is a king without
a country, actually ruling over nothing, and liable to revolution any moment." (Soren Kierkegaard)


Or is it something else.

CDL

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I just posted this in the discussion on the Orthodox Study Bible. I thought it might help with the discussion around the idea of being "with and under" the authority of the See of Peter:

Quote
Interestingly enough, the root of the word for authority is augere, which means "to increase or augment". This understanding gives new meaning to Jesus's request/command to Simon Peter later in the gospel to "strengthen his brothers". The authority granted to Simon Peter is meant to be a service that "augments":

Martyrion: The witness and mission of the Church to bring salvation to the nations declaring the faith of Peter's profession

Koinonia: The common life of the ecclesia of Jesus, as exemplified in Acts 2:42

Diakonia: The leadership/service of his apostolic co-laborers of the gospel.

It is not meant to be a self-serving power, but rather kenotic after the example of our Lord, the eternal and true head of our ecclesia. Simon Peter's (or his successor's) own interests should be secondary to the need to support martyrion, koinonia and diakonia .

Unfortunately, there are examples of several occupants of the see of Rome who have failed to exemplify this ideal, and while the "gates of hell" have not prevailed over the profession of our Messianic faith as declared boldly by Simon, it seems at times to have prevailed upon the individual members and leaders of our ecclesia...including some of the occupants of the Petrine see.
We individualistic Westerners tend to see authority as a threat to freedom, when in fact, it really is its guarantor. At root is also the issue of how freedom is defined.

Gordo

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Gordo,

I don't quite know where Trinity is headed in the post. It could be taken at face value if the poster would introduce him/herself. I'd like to welcome her and get to know her. She may well be a mystic.

CDL

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Alex et al,

I too favor the description �Orthodox in (Eucharistic) Communion with Rome�. My only complaint is that is does not read as nicely as UGCC. I proudly consider myself a member of the UOCIECWR or UOCECR for short. (how would that go in Ukie?)

Can anyone confirm or deny that immediately following the Union of Brest church leaders referred to themselves as �Orthodox in Communion with Rome�?

Certainly, there is a problem of identity with terms such as Byzantine Catholic or Greek Catholic. Wasn�t there some consideration to using the title �Kyivan Catholic Church� to emphasize and more accurately portray the type of Eastern Spirituality/Christianity and origins of the UGCC?

However, I think describing Eastern Catholics in such a manner �Orthodox in Communion with Rome� is certainly done for far deeper reasons. Doing so for the sake of a more accurate description is just one reason. I think most of us agree it has some type of a political connotation.

Perhaps, this illustrates the sagacity of Patriarch Lubomyr. He has said that neither Rome nor Moscow will give Ukraine a united church under one Patriarch. I believe he is setting the stage for the first real steps towards unity. If the churches were to unite sometime in the future, more than likely, the Orthodox would do so only under the likes of Christianity in the first century. In essence, the Orthodox would only see the Bishop of Rome (as they do now) as first among equals and would be in Eucharistic Communion with him--autonomous in their daily affairs. A position that the Patriarch is slowly moving his flock back toward around the world.

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Dear Pavlo,

Yes, those who signed the Union of Brest did indeed refer to themselves as "Orthodox in union with Rome."

This is most readily seen in the Orth. Metropolitan Ilarion Ohienko's book on the Ukrainian Orthodox Church where he says that in the aftermath of the Union of Brest "the traitors (sic - ie those who signed the Union of Brest) called themselves 'Orthodox in union with Rome' or else, 'Greco-Uniates.'"

In several other places, I've read that when the early EC's were asked why the Pope was being comemorated in their churches, they replied, "It must be then that the Pope has joined the Orthodox Church!" wink

Alex

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Then, I gather, the Pope is Catholic in union with the True Faith. Fascinating. biggrin

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I changed my profile too...let's start an Orthodox Catholic movement!

biggrin Gordo

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Catholic Gyoza
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Gordo,

biggrin

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Dear Professor Dan,

I really should be marking the final exams - but you know how it is . . . smile

I think you've hit the nail squarely on the head here - can someone be a Latin Catholic and not be in communion with Rome?

I think they can and there are those out there who are "Catholic" and "Latin" in every which way BUT the Pope.

And there were anti-popes as well . . . St Catherine of Siena had a thing or two to say to some of them in her time . . . (and, no, St Catherine was NOT a Byzantine saint, but it's O.K. to venerate her! wink ).

For me, to be "Orthodox" is not ONLY a matter of faith.

For me, to be "Orthodox" is to be a member of a comprehensive religious culture.

That "culture" has to do with a spiritual outlook that is decidedly "Orthodox" and is also "Orthodox" in terms of the ritual, canonical and theological expressions and general Christian way of life.

For me, as well, to be "Orthodox" is to be in communion with Rome (even though I confess that I'm still fuzzy in my own thinking about what exactly this entails but I'm happy my Patriarch Lubomyr is leading the way here).

I understand why Orthodox Christianity that does not acknowledge the Pope of Rome sees him as being heretical and cut off from the Church - thereby losing his primacy.

But I honestly don't see the REAL differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy in faith as being insurmountable. When we've discussed these differences in my religion class, where there are both Orthodox and Catholics, they ALL affirm the differences aren't such that they should keep the two Churches apart.

I DON'T see the fact that Orthodox Christianity doesn't accept the Pope to mean that it is somehow "less" as the true Church of Christ either. I think the whole argument is about two different ecclesial models today.

I DON'T see the fact that because my Church accepts communion/union with Rome as meaning it is less "Orthodox" - in fact, Orthodox Christianity ITSELF affirmed more than once in the first millennium that the Primate of Rome IS the first Patriarch/Bishop in the entire Church along the lines of a "first among equals."

Yes, the EC's have been "subjected" to the whims of Latin domination. But we've "come along way, baby" since those times - except in cases when EC Churches have ceased to react to Roman curial machinations. The UGCC is actually getting MORE reactive to them. wink

And, YES, the terms of our union with Rome should be revisited and renegotiated as Rome's theologians themselves have discarded the historic unias as unfortunate machinations (again that word!) that do not respect the ecclesial integrity of the Orthodox Churches.

BUT the UGCC and other EC churches have a history that has given them a specific shape and life. They deserve to continue in that life and they deserve to be respected both by Rome and by Orthodoxy.

The ideal that we should strive for is to be as "Orthodox" in "cultural/ritual" terms as our brothers and sisters in the Mother Orthodox Churches that we come from. There shouldn't be the SLIGHTEST difference between us save for the commemoration of the Pope (ideally, ONCE only during the Divine Liturgy please).

"Orthodox" is also a term used by the Oriental Orthodox Churches, even though they are separated formally from Byzantine Orthodoxy. I don't see how it can be the exclusive property of world-wide Byzantine Orthodoxy - Byzantine Orthodoxy should consider giving up this idea since this would also go a long way to helping to heal the breach with Oriental Orthodoxy (i.e. iconoclasm as being a problem for the Byzantine Church and not for the Oriental Churches and what this implies by way of the Seventh Council).

And our "communion with Rome" should be much looser than it is, something similar to the communion that the Orthodox Churches have with the EP.

This is all an ideal. But it is part of our past, present and also future identity, in varying degrees.

And no one said any of this was going to be easy . . .

Alex

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I am not surprised that there were people who asked the question why the Pope was being commemorated. I suspect the union was a top down move and once the bishop joined up the civil authorities reenforced the union and stamped out any decent from the ranks.

Dont forget also the Act of Union acknowledged the superiority of the Primate of Poland over the Metropolitan of Kiev. It did not grant him much but he got a hand in the instalation bits. I cant recall the exact right it granted the Primate.

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Dear Pavel,

Yes, another good reason why the terms of union should be renegotiated.

Also, since Poland doesn't have a king any longer . . . we really can't continue to count on his "protection" now, can we? wink

Alex

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