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Dear Trinity,

Yes, I understand the part about you being what you are.

But just what are you?

Alex
UGCCer, Orthodox Catholic, animal-lover, college professor, amateur cook, former wrestler, husband . . .

I wonder how much negativity to authority arises from an undeveloped relationship to parents.
You are subjected to no one except God and all ligitimate authority comes from Him.
If we object to and reject the authority He has placed over us, we reject His authority.

I for one am submissive to my Bishop who is over me, but that does not imply that I am in anyway subservient to him.
Stephanos I

Okay, I looked the words up in my Latin-English dictionary, and I STILL can't make a coherent sentence out of them.

I think I get the gist of what you're saying, though...

God bless,

Karen

Dear Trinity,

You Posted,

"I am what I am.

I do not need anyone's approval.

I choose who I am and who I wish to be.

Those who do not like my choice: their opinions do not matter. My mind has been decided as to what is best for me.

If those in power make my choice difficult for me, either they must give way, I must find a way around them, or I must leave their company.

I am the best judge of what is best for me.

Trinity "

You do need God's approval of who you are and who you will be. God is the judge of what is best for you. "I am the best judge of what is best for me." Sounds like humanist garbage to me.

Hey Incog,

Hold on, now... I think that Trinity was referring to HUMAN approval. Certainly she would agree with you, judging by her profile.

God bless,

Karen

Alex, Do you recall the source from which you read this reply? This anecdote comes up in discussion of the awareness of people in GC churches that they are in GC churches rather than "Orthodox" ones. This issue, of course, was important in a great deal of nasty litigation in the US in the early 1900's. I am wondering about the time and place in which such comments were alleged to have been made.

Dear djs,

I know I've seen those comments in several places - and they all refer to the time immediately following the Union of Brest - I believe Met. Ilarion mentions them in his Ukrainian language "Ukrainian Orthodox Church."

I'll be on the look-out for them and should I light on them, I'll let you know or else pm you.

It's one of those things one thinks one will never need to reference . . . and then . . . (like the letter from Pope Innocent III approving the three-finger Sign of the Cross).

One person who will definitely know will be Fr. Serge Keleher in Ireland at St Kevin's Byzantine Catholic parish - I believe he's the one who initially shared that comment with me years ago.

Alex

Pavel, dude, sometimes you are hilarious !

-- John

Dear Karen,

The original quote is actually in English. I had friends translate it into Greek and Latin, so if things aren't 100% clear - blame them.

I know it as an unofficial slogan of a football (soccer) supporters club: "No one likes us � we don�t care".

Works for me.


Dear Alex,

As has been posted elsewhere, the Greco-Catholic community of Dublin, which meets in St. Kevin's Oratory, is named after Hieromartyr Nicholas (Charnetsky). This can be confirmed by visiting their web site .

Hristos a �nviat din morţi, cu moartea pre moarte călc�nd și celor din morm�nturi viaţă dăruindle!

I agree with Pavel. I refer to myself as Eastern Catholic, and that is often a segue into talking about the Church.

-- John

Dear Kobzar,

O.K.!

Alex

Eric,

I am not speaking of myself in a derogatory tone and I do not feel inferior to anyone.

What I was trying to do was categorize the opinion that I feel many hold (either through arrogance or ignorance ... or even a combination of the two) about the Eastern Churches.

The type of attitude that was displayed in the thread about Divine Mercy Sunday. The idea that the Bishop of Rome (i.e., the Pope) has decided that the Latin Rite should celebrate the feast of the Divine Mercy on the Sunday following Pascha. Thus because the Pope has instituted this in the Latin Rite and the Pope is himself a Latin Rite Catholic then their practice must some how be more venerable or "better" than what the East does. Therefore the East should immediately cease what they are doing and cleave unto the Latin manner.

Or the type of attitude displayed in our Eastern Rite parishes by Latin Rite Catholics who desire to institute Latin devotional practices in an Eastern parish.

Or the attitude which I personally have been blasted with by ignorant people who dare to claim that I have left the Catholic Church because I do not attend the Latin Rite.

All of this flows from two sources.

First from ignorance of the Latin Church about their Eastern brethren. And the ignorance exists because the Latin Church largely ignores our existance. The Latin Church does not teach or encourage understand of or knowledge of the Eastern Churches.

From this ignorance is developed arrogance. A sense of superiority. "Well the Bishop of Rome/Pope is in charge of everything and he is of the Latin Rite therefore it follows that the Latin Rite must be better than the Eastern Rites."

I am not inferior in any way. The Eastern Rites of the Church are not inferior in any way. But that doesn't stop people from having the perception that we are inferior in some way.

It was that perception that I was categorizing. Not my own feelings.

I hope this helps.

Carole

Carole and MizByz,

Thanks for clarifying your positions. I think that what most do is because of ignorance. Just like the 70% of Americans who are not Catholic who think we worship the Holy Theotokos, they too are just ignorant. Also, here's an example:

1111111111I11111111111111
1111111111111111111111111
1111111I111111111111111111
1111111I111111111111111111

There are 97 ones and 3 letter "I"s in the above example. Roughly 22 of the 23 sui juris non-Latin Churches make up about 3% of the Church.

As you can see it's hard to sort out which are the "I"s and which are the ones, and they all blend together yet are vastly different. And overwhelmingly the ones seem to be the norm. So too, the Latin Church is by far the largest as well.

So please try not to get angry or defensive when someone questions your affiliation. Just take the time to charitably point out the truth and the great beauty of the Catholic East. Most will be enthralled to hear of the East and probably want to experience the Divine Liturgy with you!

Hi there, feisty folks!

Thought I'd let the furor die down a little before I tried to explain myself - don't want to be run out of the Town Hall on a rail!

Here's what I meant:

I was responding to all the statements I was reading about how we as Byzzies are expected to be this way, be that way, whatever, by people who are outside - and sometimes inside - our Tradition. As Byzzies, we are the best judges of what we ourselves should be and need to be - (with God's guidance, of course)! For example, I believe that if a bishop or archbishop said we should do away with our ikonostas and start liturgical dancing, he would be wrong in regards to our rite, and I have the right and duty to - well - basically, resist his ideas. That's what I meant about "getting out of my way". I was referring to liturgical / religious reformer spillover, which sounds like a big concern to everyone at this particular thread - which unfortunately, it is.

Of course, God is the best judge for what I should do! However, although He suggests, it is I who make the ultimate decision. Free will!

You know I have to end with a little humor, as usual. Yes, God suggests and I try to follow Him as best I can, but to be honest, I never actually hear a voice TELLING me what I should do - I guess if I did, I'd be reaching either for the holy water or Dr. Shrinkum's phone number!

Trinity

Heelloo there, I just am weighing in here. The idea of being Orthodox or orthodox is (my thinking here...) a matter of either objective or subjective. As in a previous post...'orthodox' Presbyterian is neither Orthodox or Catholic, but maybe 'catholic' in dogma held, but heterodox in theology and ecclesiology. I , personally, prefer to be in a certain ER Catholic parish or visit to our capitol city, rather than a certain Orthodox one. Why...you may ask...even though I am Russian Orthodox..? It is because the Byz Rite one is more Orthodox than the Orthodox one. AND, to boot, I, just yesterday, went inside a local RC parish to say Otche Nash, and lo and behold, we don't have alter girls, but alter women, as the RC Priest hands the Chalice to a white robed woman of middle age to help with the distribution. Ah, iffin I'd wannbe a Catholic, ho, i woodena be thar..! (said Jethro, my alternate personality.!). Well, said one, "kill'em all, an let God sort'um out", sounds a bit like the Evil One, eh! (opps, my Canadian personality) (mebbe bad reference , but sometimes true!) Bach to sub- or ob- jective, depends on what side o' da fence, yous on! Huh, mik