www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West The Great Sin of the Latin Church

The Great Sin of the Latin Church is not:

Teaching Purgatory
Teaching Indulgences
Teaching Inherited Guilt
Teaching the Spirit proceeds from the Son
Using Annulments
Inverting the Order of the Sacraments
Loosing the practice of Communion for infants
Praticing Eucharistic Adoration
Praying the Rosary
Making Marian Dogmas
or any other teaching/practice.

The great sin of the Latin Church (and/or her members) is insisting that these peculiar Latin beliefs / practices must be accepted and practiced by Eastern Churches in order for them to be truly Catholic. Such an attitude is an insurmountable wall to unity.

Dear Ghazar,

Well said on the whole.

However (lest I fail to add my "however"), unity, at least as the Orthodox see it, requires unity on dogmata. The dogmata need not be stated in exactly the same way (as we are learning through our dialogues with the Oriental Orthodox), but need to at least say the same things at their roots, as Alex might say (paraphrased), have the same "pith and substance."

With love in Christ,
Andrew

An the greatest error of the Orthodox, is often the idea that only the Byzantine usages and traditions are authenticaly Christian (infant communion, leavened bread, priests wih long beards, etc.)

Dear Ghazar,

I hear your frustration.

We RCs are coming around. It's not like the Portugese invading the Malabar coast anymore.

I think you have read VII documents on Eastern Churches. The Pope very strongly affirms the correct traditions of the East. OK, documents rarely get read, but the RC laity is taking an interest in the Christian East. The East has an attraction for us who want mystical theology.

Don't give up. Keep teaching us. We need you.

God bless,

Paul

Dear Paul: Thank you for your kind post. Meeting Roman Catholics like yourself gives me hope that the Churches will someday be re-united and that attitudes will someday change. There are members of all the ancient Churches who do this to one another as Mexican mentioned. But as our brother Andrew stated, we can get past exceesively dogmatizing our differences and work to see if at the roots, we are really meaning the same things. Sometimes, though I wonder if the Latin Catholics on this forum are right, that there is no room for our Eastern perspective in the "Roman Catholic" Communion. At times like these I wonder if I really belong instead in an Orthodox Church. Yet there are other times, I suppose...

Ghazar

I think it's much more a case of misunderstanding, than SIN.

Excuse me, but which Latin Catholics have told you that?

I do not know anyone who subscribes to the Catholic Catechism who would dare say there is no room for the Eastern perspective!

Only the Good Lord knows where I would be if I did'nt find this site & the Eastern Church last year, I was deeply depressed from being a caregiver for my mother and my best friend passing before his 51st birthday , but this old Latin is very happy here.

I cannot correct the past mistakes of the Roman Church,but only " Do the good you know, and what you do not know will be revealed to you ." ( St. Mark the Ascetic ).

james

Dear Ghazar,

One of my favorite quotes from an RC Encyclopedia: "Eastern Catholics and Orthodox share a common tradition which includes for Roman Catholics as well a valid sacramental system, orthodox moral teachings, a deep devotion to the Mother of God and the indelible stamp of the genius of the Eastern Fathers of the Church..."

Our Lord prayed for our unity. Undoubtably His prayer will be answered.

Paul

Dear Ghazar,

I am sorry to hear that you have heard this from some of my fellow Latin Catholics. We are here to learn from the East, not to dictate what it should believe or how it should be stated.

If your Churches extend communion to us and we share communion with you, there is a common Faith among us. It is important for us Latins to learn how that Faith is expressed in the East.

I am happy that we are in communion. It would be a severe loss to us Latins and I believe to the Eastern Churches with whom we are in communion if it were to be broken.

Give time and growing awareness a chance and keep on teaching with whatever patience you can muster.

Steve

James! What a beautiful post and much needed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

James posts are all truly good!

And I too can echo James, Steve, Coalesco, Brian et al

I also have met nothing but friendship , kindness and understanding , not to mention the constant support from all here.

It is only Sites like this where East and West can meet , where we can learn from each other and then grow towards each other, which will break down this stupid concept that East and West are different and have nothing in common.

Oh I don't know if I have expressed that well - I hope you understand what I mean.

Thank you all for being you

Anhelyna

And whilst I was typing that up - Coalesco changed his Avatar yet again - where does he find these wonderful ones ?

Dear Ghazar,

You say that the great sin of the Latin Church is insisting that the peculiar Latin beliefs / practices must be accepted and practiced by Eastern Churches in order for them to be truly Catholic (latinization) and not these particular latin beliefs or practices themselves.

I must desagree with you in this point. From my point of view some of theese practices (and not only latinization) are unacceptable not only from an Eastern but also from a Latin point of view.

As most of you know, I am a Latin following the Byzantine rite. I consider unacceptable, for example, the interpolation of the filioque in the Symbol of Faith not only because is contrary to the tradition of the Eastern Church but also because is contrary to the tradition of the Church of Rome, that for centuries refused to change the Symbol of faith of the Roman Rite (Ex Patre procedentem) for that of the Frankish rite (qui Patre Filioque procedit).

The inversion of of the order of the Sacraments (baptism, first Communion, confirmation), the practice of Communion under only one sacramental kind and the Eucharistic adoration are relatively new practices contrary both to the tradition of the the Eastern and the Western Chuch.

These practices involves also theological developments. For example the practice of adult confirmation (as in the Anglican and the Lutheran Churches where confirmation is not considered a sacrament) could also involve changes in the Roman Catholic theology of the sacrament.

The sacrament of confirmation traditionally considered in the catholic Church the sacrament of the gif(s) of the Holy Spirit unseparatedly united to the sacrament of baptism is now viewed by some Roman Catholic theologians just as a "mature public affirmation of their faith and commitment to the responsibilities of their Baptism" (Book of Common Prayer). This is because of it that Roman Catholic bishops and priests give more and more importance to the catechetical preparation for the sacraments of (First) Communion and Confirmation and in general to the pastoral aspects of the sacraments and not to the dogmatic ones. This practices with the eventual theological changes that they can introduce in the Latin Church are in no way consintent with the the traditional sacrementology of the Roman and the Universal (Eastern-Western)Catholic Church.

The fact that Eastern Catholics Churches are in communion of faith and love with the Church of Rome makes the problems of the Roman Church also our problems. We cannot accept whatever they do or teach. The communion between different churches is not possible if they do not share the same "orthodox" faith and I think that it is our as Eastern Catholics duty to tell them what is from our point of view the "orthodox" teaching and practice (orthodoxia-orthopraxia).

About tha proclamation of Marian dogmata, purgatory I agree with you in the fact that the Roman Church tried to impose Eastern Catholics (and eventually also Orthodox Christians) not only its own believes but also the way of making theology. The dogma od Mary Assumption to the Heaven is a result of Roman Dogmna of the Inmaculate Conception, and this a result of the Roman theology of Original Sin.

Catholic theology and Roman Catholic theology is not only Saint Jerome, Saint Augustinus and Saint Thomas of Aquinas...

Yours in Christ
F

Yes, those are moving words, Jakub. Thank you for those.

As we say in the concluding prayers in the Byzantine Panakhida to Christ our God, "You alone are without sin; Your justice is eternal justice and Your Word is truth". Mankind is sinful, and consequences of that sin include pride, arrogance, disunity, among other things.

As both William and Mexican have pointed out, these failings are not unique to either East or West. May the dwelling of the Holy Spirit within us and His blessing bring us back to that brotherly unity that our Lord so desires.

As Paul and others have well said above, the Latin Church has made monumental strides since the turn of the last century, when many criticized Leo XIII for "Orientalium Dignitas" (including some very latinized Greek Catholics).

Just the last forty years alone have been extraordinary, with such unprecedented documents as Orientale Lumen, Ut Unum Sint, our own code of canons and instruction, Orientalium Ecclesiarum, Slavorum Apostoli, etc. etc.

We still have a long way to go to fully heal the breach, but the encouraging words of the Holy Father during his pontificate, as well as progress in Orthodox/Catholic dialogue are positive steps toward healing this most unfortunate breach in unity.

I have a picture on my wall of Paul VI and Athenogoras after the 1965 monumental lifting of the anathemas of 1054, actually autographed by Athenogoras, and when I look at that I know that the good will and brotherly love manifested at that event will produce good fruit, cannot be forgotten, and must be built upon.