www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West The Great Sin of the Latin Church

Querido Francisco,

I have to work now, so I don't have time to post.

But suffice it to say that you are extremely confused about all those issues.

Francisco, at no point were you in charge of the rite of Rome. The Bishop of Rome is in charge of the rite of Rome. If he wants to use the Symbol of the Franks, he is free to do so (or not to do so, as JP II has shown us on several occasions).

I think Mexican and Ghazar both make pretty good points. Byzantines, Orientals, and Latins can all fail to distinguish between essentials and accidentals (look at me, using that Scholastic language tsk tsk! ).

It reminds me of the ROAC folks who think the New Calendar is "blasphemy." Or of that western lady who was scandalized by the married seminarians at Holy Transfiguration in McClean.

I must go.

Vale amice.

LatinTrad

Regina sine labe originali concepta, O.P.N.!

Dear William:

Your misgivings come subtly one-sided.

It takes two to tango!


AmdG

In Christo Domino carisime Latine traditionalis,

You say "the Bishop of Rome is in charge of the rite of Rome. If he wants to use the Symbol of the Franks, he is free to do so". Please allow me to tell you that the Roman rite is the particular way the Church of Rome prays, celebrates its faith in the risen Lord and santifies its members throught the sacraments of salvation and not Pope's will. Pope's responsavility is to protect the Roman rite and not to modify it according to his personal will. The Greek word "liturgy" (λειτουργεία)means "common work", the "work (έργον) of the people of God (λαός)" not the work of a single person. That has nothing to do with somebody's personal will. Pope is not above all. Pope is not above the faith of the Church. Without Pope's blessing no council can be considered oecumenical according to the Catholic teaching but after their approval they are bidding also for Popes. Pope is not above Ecumenical Councils. As far as the Ecumenical Councils of Nicea and Constantinople were acepted by the Bishops of Rome they are bidding for all, the pope included, and the council of Constantinople, as far as I know, does not allow the Pope to makes interpolations in the symbol of Faith. Did not the popes of Rome condemn the Frankish councils because of the interpolation of the filioque? Did not pope John make Saint Methodius bishop of Moravia and the Slavs although he had taken part in a synod in Constantinople condemning the filioque? Did not the pope of Rome put the symbol of faith without the filioque writen in gold in Saint Peter doors "ad orthodoxam fidem defendendam"?

Pope is not above Holy Tradition. Pope is the protector of the "orthodoxy" not above orthodoxy. Does anyone remember the name of that Pope who was deposed and excomunicated because he was consider monothlist?

Before II Vatican Council Pope's infalibility was understood as Pope's personal prerrogative. Pope was infalibilis per se, that is above the Church and outside the Church (!!!) but after II Vatican Council Pope's primacy is no more understood as a personnal privilege but a "charisma" at the service of the whole Church (not above or outside the Church but in the Church and for the Church). I do not know if that was Saint Damasus (a Roman pope with Spanish backgrounds) or Saint Gregory the Great who first used the title "servus servorum Dei" and who refused the title of "oecumenical Pope" and "catholicus episcopus" because he though that affirming that he was "catholic episcopus" and "sucessor of the apostles" could be understood as denying the catholicitas and apostolic succcession of his brothers bishops.

Si tu vales ego valeo
Franciscus

P.S. Sit nomine Domini benedictum. Latin is not a privilege of traditional Latins. Although probably we do not agree in the meaning of the word "traditional".

Dear Diak,

I also consider that picture a treasure of Christian unity.

I consider the lifting of the anathemas of the Church of Rome and the Church of Constantinople enough to bring us into full communion. I don't understand why it is not a reality.

My guess is that there are too many experts and not enough love.

Paul

I see no value in this thread except to incite divisiveness between Eastern and Western Catholics.

This is a thread that I think not only should be locked but it should be deleted.

This is more evidence of the Latin bashing that is takeing root here at this forum.

It has gotten to the point where I think I may join Theist Gal and take a break.


David, the Byzantine Catholic

Why is it Latin bashing to name the problems we have with our Latin brothers and sisters? Isn't that what happens in families? If we are unable to talk about the problems between family members, those problems fester until they reach the point where real damage is done, damage that may not be repairable. We can't pretend all is nice and there are not stresses between our Eastern thought and practice and that of the RC Church. We can't pretend there are those in the Latin Church who DO NOT UNDERSTAND AND RESPECT our laws, Tradition and traditions. For centuries we have been requested, ordered, pleaded with by popes and councils to return to our authentic Tradition and traditions. Then when we do, various and sundry Latins tell us we are wrong and have to do as Rome does in order to be real Catholics like they are. We aren't just RC with a funny Mass, we are individual Churches who are in Communion with the Pope. We have the right and the obligation to be ourselves. Don

Francisco,

I agree with your last 2 posts 99%, have to leave that 1% out, nobody is perfect.

LT, wish I could say I agree with you, but studying the Eastern Church has revealed many things and has filled me with a spiritual warmth that I was lacking.

Laudetur Jesus Christus ~ Slava Isusu Christu


james

Dear Brethren,

The lively exchange here points once again to the single largest ecclesiological barrier to union between Catholics (in communion with Rome) and Eastern Orthodox (not in communion with Rome). That barrier is "conciliarity."

The East remains fully conciliar, even, I dare say, sometimes to a fault. The West has not been conciliar (for a thousand years) and still is not an adequately conciliar Church, although the current pontiff seems to have set the groundwork for a slow drift back in that direction, may God grant him many more years of health!

I remain both an optimist and a realist. Good things will probably happen but perhaps not in my lifetime. Nonetheless we always work for the good!

With love in Christ,
Andrew

Brother Andrew,

The way I see it, some people like Manhattan Clam Chowder, some like New England, one is red the other white, but both are tied together, they are clam chowders.

james

Don,
I understand what you are saying, but we can discuss these issues in a respectful and charitable manner.

Selecting a subject of "The Great Sin of the Latin Church" and then just creating a list of thoses "sins" is neither respectful nor charitable.


David, the Byzantine Catholic

Dear David,

If you don't like the thread, you don't have to read it. Afterall, you've missed my entire point. The "list" was not at all "sins" but differences that are hotly debated on this forum. My point is that Latins err (note that I used "Sin" in EASTERN sense of "missing the mark" - afterall Churches can't "sin" only individuals can) not becuase they have a different understanding of the Tradition or follow Latin Fathers. They only err when they try to insist that we must follow these things too. Someone asked why the lopsided approach? It is because I am speaking from my own experience of Latins trying to force their faith on me and my Church. Yes, Greeks have done it to Armenians too, but I am not in communion with Greek Orthodox therefore I can't hold them to the same standard I would like to see Latins held too (being I am in communion with them).

Anyways, it was just meant to throw a point out there and I think it sparked some good dialogue. If this thread is closed, so be it. I still think it was worth it.

regards,
Ghazar

Ghazar,

I completely agree. Unfortunately, the Roman Church has quite frankly treated the Byzantines like red-headed stepchildren.. like Prodgical sons, only without the warm welcome :rolleyes: . Granted, there are far, far more RCs than there are BCs (this is why I really want to change rites OFFICIALLY, no matter how big of a pain it is to do so).

The Roman Church hasn't really respected the Byzantines, and has treated us like quasi-schismatics, closet Orthodox.

This arrogance and lack of understanding of Eastern Catholic traditions was directly responsible for the defection of most Byzantine Catholics in the U.S. back to Eastern Orthodoxy. If Roman bishops in the U.S. had accepted the fact that Eastern Catholic tradition allows for married priests instead of forcing the Latin discipline of celibacy on them, Byzantine Catholics wouldn't be such a minority as we are.

This "all Catholics must be ROMAN Catholics" attitude has got to go... thankfully, the Holy Father has done a pretty good job encouraging Roman Catholics to learn more about the Eastern "lung" of their church. I guess it helps that he's Polish (his mother, btw, is Ukrainian, a little-revealed fact-- the Polish and the Ukrainians don't get along).

I have a feeling that the next Pope will not have the same attitude towards the East, and will laregely ignore us.

Slava Isusu Cristu!

Karen

Deleted by me-- posted it twice by mistake.

Please!!

How immature are y'all???

This thread is a PRIME breeding ground for controversy grounded in HATRED, not understanding rooted in LOVE.

I'm sorry, but it blows my mind that this thread wasn't closed the minute it was started.

Ghazar, this is not aimed solely at you. I respect and admire you, but I must say that this is not the place for such a post.

But *how* is this thread helping things? It is driving people apart.

And speaking of red-headed stepchildren, if mine acted like half the posters in this thread I'd beat the crap outta them...with a leather belt and a smile on my face.

So please, get over yourselves and let's close this thread.

Logos Teen

And you're HOW old?

Perhaps if this thread were turned more to, how can we best deal with this arrogance we perceive as Eastern Catholics? And there is arrogance on BOTH sides, make no mistake... here I am accusing the Latin Rite of being arrogant, all the while looking down my nose at THEM! Ironic, huh?