www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Move to Kyev Announced?

Dear Friends,

Just dropped in to thank the Administrator on an excellent, articulate and sensitive post on this issue.

The Russian Church and press, in fact, regards all three Ukrainian Eastern churches as "uncanonical."

When the copy of the Shroud of Turin was making its rounds, clergy and members of the UGCC, UAOC and UOC-KP joined together in processions etc.

The Russian press referred to them as a kind of motley crew of: "uniates, autocephalists and filaretites."

And Patriarch Husar is actually disobeying the RC view that Catholics may only have ecumenical relations with canonical Orthodox churches.

Ultimately, blood is thicker than water.

And while there are many Ukrainians in the UOC-MP, the ecclesial perspective of the canonical Orthodox Church in Ukraine where it must be somehow subject to the Patriarch of Moscow and "all Rus'" is something that is, regrettably, still part of the colonial heritage of Russian Orthodoxy, canonical or not.

The Russian Church itself broke some canons, as we understand, in its history when it took over the Kyivan Metropolia and its heritage. The same obtained when it proclaimed a patriarchate for itself. The ROCOR and other groups have also claimed the Russian Church under Pat. Sergius broke canons when it agreed with the soviet state etc.

The three uncanonical groups fo the Kyivan Church, as Moscow sees it, will continue to pull closer together and work together in Kyiv.

From the perspective of the Kyivan Church, such as it is today, it is Moscow who is the usurper and which is, morally at least, on questionable canonical grounds.

Your sinful servant,

Alex

Alex, once again your incredible gift of synthesis and relevant summarization is manifested.

I would also add the "non-canonical" erection of the Bulgarian Patriarchate which was ignored by much of the Orthodox world for many years but is now accepted as completely canonical. Funny how those things seem to ebb and flow, and what can be rationalized by the "canonical" church as "non-canonical" can years later be just as easily rationalized as "canonical". What comes around...goes around.

The establishment of a parallel Church of Moscow to an established Kyivan Metropoltinate would certainly today be looked upon as "non-canonical". The whole "canonical" argument by the MP and others just doesn't stand up to the laugh test anymore at least with me. All Ukrainian politics and nationalism aside, as we can look historically at the Bulgarian situation and others such as Estonia.

And it's ironic also that the ROCOR would entertain reunification with a hierarchy it believed even 10 or 15 years ago was invalid and heretical (and made profuse public statements to that effect).

Kyiv is the historic see of the entire Church of Rus', and thank God there are ever-improving relations with Patriarchs Lubomyr and Filaret. I look at the situation with Patriarch Filaret as rather the restoration of the historic see of Kyiv than a vagante or rogue schism.

The seemingly certain election of Viktor Yushchenko to the presidency, himself a devout Orthodox man and staunch supporter of Patriarch Filaret, will also make the landscape even more interesting.

I will be buying horilka for everyone when Patriarch Lubomyr takes his residence in Kyiv next year.

I'll drink to that. Hey, don't forget to send me a bottle as well.
Lauro

Dear Diak,

Certainly, Patriarch Filaret isn't, as I've heard, the warmest or most likeable person . . .

And it is also true that many bishops of the UAOC and UOC-KP were students of Met. Vladimir Sabodan - and continue to esteem him highly.

I also understand that Met. Vladimir is their constant choice for Kyivan Orthodox Patriarch and I think that we will one day see him as such - and recognized as such by world Orthodoxy.

Personally, I like Patriarch Lubomyr a great deal.

Anyone who can get the Basilians (at least up here) to call him "Patriarch" in the liturgy wins top honours with me!

He knows how to smooth things over and is a real "people" person.

He's like the Administrator here, in other words . . .

Alex

To be honest with you guys, I haven't had the chance to meet any of these church leaders. I just know them from what I've read and heard. I have been following Patriarch Husar's speeches and what not and he seems to be like a very nice and simple person. I can't comment much about Patriarch Filaret but his comments also seem to be very nice as well. I guess archbishop Vsevolod of the UAOC would also make a very nice Patriarch, he seems to get along pretty well with the bishops of the UGCC and everybody seems to respect him as well. I prefer not commenting on metropolitan Slabodan.
Lauro

Dear Lauro,

Yes, of all the church leaders I've mentioned, I've only met Patriarch Husar.

I came close to meeting the Administrator, but that's when we had the blackout . . .

Alex

But who is this Administrator, could he be a church leader? You know, we don't really know much about this guy. He could be a bishop you know or maybe he's really a she and the administrator could be a nun. I guess we'll never know. Why doesn't he or she show himself or herself?
Lauro

The Administrator is really Batman. It's a secret, so don't tell anyone else.

In Christ,
Anthony

Dear Lauro,

If you were an administrator and had to deal with people like me, would YOU want to "show yourself?"

Ya ne dumayu tak duzhe . . .

Alex

John Paul II had no problem meeting with all religious leaders (UOC-KP, UAOC, Protestant, Muslim, Jews, etc..) during his visit to Ukraine. When meeting with Ukrainian Orthodox hierarchs, Patriarch Lubomyr Lubomyr is following the example set by the holy father.

Diax,
You are correct in stating that Victor Yushchenko has a good chance of being elected president in 2004. As you mention he is a member of the UOC-KP and will likely greatly help inter-religious relations. His wife, Katia, is a member of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (Chicago) and will likely be instrumental in this effort.

A warm welcome back to Alex - we love you and the Forum isn't the same without you.
You write that "Patriarch Husar is actually disobeying the RC view that Catholics may only have ecumenical relations with canonical Orthodox churches". Haven't run into any official statement of that view - and it's ridiculous anyway, since Roman Catholicism has no brief to judge the canonical problems of Eastern Orthodoxy.
Did I read you correctly? Are the Basilians in Toronto really commemorating the Patriarch, with that title? Incognitus

Dear Incognitus,

Yes, our big Basilian parish in Thornhill is commemorating the Patriarch - and from what I can see, so is our Basilian bishop-emeritus too!!

It used to be a big, big issue with them, but not no more.

In response to the issue of the RC position, raised also by Hritzko (z kvasnym zubom - my father's favourite pet peeve, it reminds me of him ), Rome has officially stated that it recognizes only the canonical Orthodox Church of Ukraine.

The UOC-MP makes a point of underlining such statements on its website at: www.orthodox.org.ua [orthodox.org.ua]

For your reading pleasure!

As for the Pope meeting with Filaret - he met with ALL leaders, including Jews, Muslims and the like.

Yes, it is on that basis that His Beatitude Patriarch Husar has begun regularly meeting and praying with the Patriarch of the UOC-KP and the UAOC.

But the fact remains that Rome has reassured the MP that it only recognizes the MP as the only canonical Orthodox Church in Ukraine.

Again, feel free to examine the above site and the interview with the RC Cardinal.

I don't like it either. But that's just the way it is.

In the year 1988, Rome also issued a public letter assuring the MP that it recognizes ONLY IT as the legitimate heir of St Vladimir's Christian legacy.

I remember the consternation that matter stirred in the Ukie community then. But I didn't keep any written record of it, perhaps one of our patriarchal organizations would have actual written sources establishing this.

Alex

Dear Diak and (zolotey) Hritzko,

I personally met with Victor Yuschenko in an official capacity during his visit to Toronto.

He is indeed a very pious Orthodox Christian of the UOC-KP and was the only Member to come out to venerate the copy of the Turin Shroud when it was in Kyiv.

But Mr. Yuschenko was incredulous at the political views of our emigre community here in Toronto and elsewhere.

He told me he can't believe the naivete of Ukrainians on this side of the ocean about how they think Ukraine will continue its development.

He himself feels that even if he became president, the aparatus - and aparatchiks - of the left-over system in Ukraine is too entrenched for the kind of significant change Ukraine truly needs economically and politically.

He said that children are being raised by their grandparents in Ukraine, because their parents are working in other countries.

He said that anyone with any professional credentials whatever, would rather work in Portugal than in Ukraine.

He said also that there are no fewer than six liberal parties in Ukraine and five Christian democratic parties.

There is but one communist party however . . .

Etc. Etc. Etc.

And yet he is a man of obvious vision and courage.

After our meeting, I hugged him with tears in my eyes.

Alex

OK, I'm showing my ignorance again... :p I know what "uniates" and "autocephalists" are. What is a "filaretite"? I couldn't find it in the dictionary.

Dear Tammy,

(What a nice name!)

Yes, a "Filaretite" ("Filaretovtsi" in Russian) is the pejorative name given to members of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate that is headed by Pat. Filaret.

Alex