www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Purgatory

Joe,

If you have access the prayers to be read at the deathbed they definetly convey a sense of transition. Most notably imploring the Theotokos to protect the deceased against the accusations of the demons.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Joe,

Well, the Orthodox Church herself answers this through her affirmation (in the Synod mentioned somewhere above) that all souls not ready for Heaven descend to Hades - some for eternity, but others for a time for purposes of cleansing, not having, after repentance, had time to produce the "fruits of repentance" etc.

As I also understand it, Orthodoxy affirms that no one actually goes to Heaven prior to Christ's Second Coming, that the spirits of the just enter a kind of "forecourt" awaiting their eventual reunification with their bodies to stand as the composite beings we are before the Judgement seat of Christ on the last day.

The same is true of the other place . . .

Ultimately, depending on one's willfulness in committing the sins we do commit, and this can only be known to God alone, Who sees and understands all circumstances, we may continue to be open to God's Love until the end of days.

But "now is the acceptable time" for repentance, as always!

I'm just happy it will be God Who will judge me, and not my mother or wife . . .

I"d really have a helluva time then . . .

Alex

Dear Friends,

I'd like to offer some different perspectives on this question. I think Joe has noted something significant, which I have noticed in the liturgical prayers of my Church as well. In our memorial office, there is a constant liturgical appeal to "grant forgiveneess to your servants who have fallen asleep, when you come to judge those whom you created with spotless hands." From these liturgical indications, the belief seems to be that purgation or cleansing, judgement and forgivess, all come at the Final Judgement. The reference of St. Paul's first epistle to the Church of Corinth certainly seems to support this (cf.,1 Cor. 3:13 reference to "the Day" i.e. the day of judgement & Hebrews 12:29). Soorp Bedros in his second epistle can be seen to sumarize this point, stating:

"But the present heavens and the earth, which have been laid up in store by the same word, are being kept for fire until a day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, let not this one thing escape you, that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow as to the promise, as some deem slowness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing to have any perish, but to have all come to repentance. But the day of the Lord shall come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens shall pass away with a rushing sound, and the elements, being burned with intense heat, shall be dissolved; and the earth and the works in it shall be burned completely. Therefore, because of all these things being dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in holy modes of life and acts of piety, expecting and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of the Lord, by reason of which the heavens, being set on fire, shall be dissolved, and the elements, being burned with instense heat, shall be milted! But according to His promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." (1 St. Pt. 3:7-13, ONT).

I think the whole construct of tolls and purgatory, etc., is a result of the faithful trying to discern how the basic truths of our faith play out after life in this world. We all agree that sanctification is the goal of Christian life (what the East would call "Divinization"), and we all recognize that many die in need of further divinizatioin. We therefore all pray for our dearly departed for mercy, forgiveness and healing. These are the facts of our faith. How all this plays out has been explained differently in different traditions. In the Latin tradition, there is "purgatory." Some in the Eastern Roman tradition teach tolls. In other Churches, like the Armenian (as I have argued above), this process of healing is instantaneous at the Last Judgement.

This whole question is conditioned by how we view "time" in the afterlife. From our perspective "in time" the departed are waiting, resting or sleeping, enjoying a foretaste of their reward or punishment. But they are actually beyond time now and perhaps already judged, cleansed and with the Lord. Who knows? We possibly can't because we are in time and they are out of it. From our perspective, we offer prayers for them which certainly effective and helpful to them. God can "back date" these and apply them to the judgement day "WHEN-ever" it is.

Alex -

1. Uh, no, I'm not a "jw". Just initials. If my parents would have had a sense of humor my middle name would have been "Edward" instead of "Paul".

2. Thanx for the response. I think the problem with "Purgatory" vis a vis the East happens to be the Latin scholastic habit of placing a label on something and seeking to define it to the nth degree.

3. Your last point is correct. The hard core "rad trads" as one of our former posters, Dr. John has stated, should be avoided.

BTW - you have to come to Uniontown some year.

No such habit exists.

The Latin west has only defined a few items more over the hundreds of years that some in the East ceased to participate in define anything to a further understanding. How many more Synods has the Latin church with its vast responsibility of area and number of members - done? How many more languages and cultural customs does the Church at Rome have as children - than the East has?? Is it right - to speak against a church which is fulfilling its responsibilities to Christ?

The Immaculate Conception, and Infallibility, and Purgatory (the act of purgation after death). And these things already existed in form - in the Eastern Church and early Councils. Textbooks - prayer for the dead - the infallibility of the Holy Spirit in his church � just because the some in the East do not have the necessity to define these further in its own expression of theology - shall all other churches now ignore their own responsibilities to thier own areas and peoples?? You may say - yes.

Now that (these three further definitions) is over hundreds of years. Certainly that is no where near �a habit�. Shall we call a man a drunkard if in his entire life he drinks wine - three times??

I shall not argue the point here.

If we want unity within the body of Christ - we have to - want - unity - and that begins with charity. St. John Climacus chapter 10.

-ray

Ray,

It was not my intention to speak against the Latin Church. It is my Particular Church.

May I humbly offer you my great apologies if I have misinterpreted your statement.

What has begun to trouble me is - the constant reappearance of anti-Latin - rumors and slander - over the years. It is no secret that anti-Rome is an acceptable bias for some here at this board. And - we are all very accustomed to it as acceptable. In fact at times - defense of Rome is unacceptable here.

I think I have been 3 or 4 years here - and I can not tell you how many times Peter, Original Sin, Purgatory, and a couple of more - have been discussed in long long threads.

Misunderstanding about - Purgatory - infallibility (Peter) - Original sin � my my my� how many times must we all, over the years, rehash these things again and again. It is as if we do not get - anywhere. No progress. We seem to all just be flapping our gums.

I do not know why - this board does not have a FAQ. A Byzantine board ?? What does it teach? Nothing? If the purpose of this board is so that people may come here and find out about the Eastern Church - is it not specifically - the Byzantine Eastern Church - in union with Rome?? I shall be in trouble with the administrator for saying this - but in its task - it seems to fail. We are like children with no guidance - constantly going in circles.

Any time I see one of these rumors (that have persisted for decades) pop up - yet again - I think to myself �Does this �Christian?� know - he participants in slander to the unity of Christ??�

So what is bugging me - is this situation of people - repeating yet again - rumors. The life span of these - errors (let us call them what they are) stuns me! It is definitely enough to make me believe in evil spirits - because some how these errors - never die!

It is a well known opinion of many Orthodox that the Latin church is too �scholastic� (conveniently forgetting that the height of scholastic speculation and theology was reached - in the Byzantine empire!).

I just hate - to see that misunderstanding - begun by hate and bias - continue. It does nothing for the unity of the church.

I have explained my troubles to you.

May I humbly offer you my great apologies... If your statement was unintentional and unwitting.

(My desire for unity and love of the entire church - is getting the better of me. Perhaps I should not post for awhile.)

-ray

Dear Ray,

As far as rumours about the Latin church being perpetuated EVERYWHERE, I must agree.

There are those that will never see that the two traditions are often saying the same things, but in different cultural languages.

It is quite frustrating, as those who have ears to hear will hear, and those who have hearts to feel will feel--- and they will discourse and try to come to common ground because of their love for Jesus Christ, but others will obstinately stand the 'correctness' of their course, and sadly, never allow the true spirit of their tradition, a tradition which they advocate as being the most spiritual of traditions, permeate their soul and their being.

Thank you Ray for your inspirational posts which transcend the limitations of culture. May God bless you and bless us with your continue posting....too many inspirational people have left this past month!

With love in the Risen Christ,
Alice

Please forgive an ignorant question. What is St Paul's meaning when he says, "Absent from the body, present with the Lord."?

Jason

Jason,

This is not an ignorant question. This is a tough one.

I think you are quoting a verse from II Cor. 5:8 "...we do have confidence, and we would rather be absent from the body and at home with the Lord." [or as some versions state, "present with the Lord."

We have to take a look at the context from which this verse is written, i.e. the scriptures before and after this one starting at the first of chapter 5 in Paul's 2nd Letter to the Corinthians.

:1For we know that if the earthly house of our tabernacle be dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens. 5:2For verily in this we groan, longing to be clothed upon with our habitation which is from heaven: 5:3if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 5:4For indeed we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened; not for that we would be unclothed, but that we would be clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up of life. 5:5Now he that wrought us for this very thing is God, who gave unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 5:6Being therefore always of good courage, and knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord 5:7(for we walk by faith, not by sight); 5:8we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord. 5:9Wherefore also we make it our aim, whether at home or absent, to be well-pleasing unto him. 5:10For we must all be made manifest before the judgment-seat of Christ; that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I will grant you that St. Paul and his letters are not easy to grasp especially these verses, but we should always keep in mind that he wrote them in his own time and this particular letter was addressed to people in Corinth in Greece.

We have to get into the meaning of his thinking and that is the crux of the matter.

Early Church Father, Tertullian, Book V, Against Marcion comments on the passages mentioned:

/ It was accordingly not without good reason that he described them as "not wishing indeed to be unclothed," but (rather as wanting) "to be clothed upon;" in other words, as wishing not to undergo death, but to be surprised into life, "that this mortal (body) might be swallowed up of life," by being rescued from death in the supervesture of its changed state. This is why he shows us how much better it is for us not to be sorry, if we should be surprised by death, and tells us that we even hold of God "the earnest of His Spirit" (pledged as it were thereby to have "the clothing upon," which is the object of our hope), and that " so long as we are in the flesh we are absent from the Lord " moreover, that we ought on this account to prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord," and so to be ready to meet even death with joy. In this view it is that he informs us how "we must all appear before the judgement-seat of Christ, that every one may receive the things done in his body, according as he hath done either good or bad." Since, however, there is then to be a retribution according to men's merits, how will any be able to reckon with God? But by mentioning both the judgment-seat and the distinction between works good and bad, he sets before us a Judge who is to award both sentences, and has thereby affirmed that all will have to be present at the tribunal in their bodies. For it will be impossible to pass sentence except on the body, for what has been done in the body. God would be unjust, if any one were not punished or else rewarded in that very condition, wherein the merit was itself achieved. "If therefore any man be in Christ, he is a new creature; old; things are passed away; behold, all things are become new;" and so is accomplished the prophecy of Isaiah./
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All in all St. Paul seems to be describing our eathly bodies ("earthly tent") and our future resurrected bodies. Remember that Paul was writing to Corinth at the time where the church in Corinth was in the heart of Greek culture and many had difficulty with the idea of the bodily resurrection since Greeks did not believe in a bodily resurrection. They saw the afterlife as something which only happened to the soul. At death the soul was released but there was no immortality for the body.

Paul was not afraid to die and be temporarily absent from the body in order to be present with the Lord, because he believed in spending eternity with Christ and I think this is what he meant by that verse.

It looks like from these verses that he was trying to explain to the Corinthians that there would be a re-uniting of body and soul and souls would stand before the final judgment seat back in their bodies. (again). And as our friend the late, John Wayne, used to say:

Pilgrim, that'll be the day!

Porter.

Ray, there is no need to apologize. It was a misunderstanding, that's all. I try to ask questions here rather than to make statements - as I have a great love for the East.

At the risk of making the Byzantine Catholics and Orthodox angry - I think they believe - more or less - in the process of Purgatory without calling it Purgatory. They may not define it as we do, but it seems to me there is a belief in a similar process.

Alice - as always, thank you for the kind words.

The great thing about this board is that it provides the opportunity for Byzantine Catholics, Orthodox and Latin Catholics to discuss something that is so vital to all of us - our faith. If toes get stepped on from time to time, well, in what family does that not occur?

Dear Ray,

Although I decided to return to my historic Eastern mother Church of Holy Etchmiadzeen, I whole-heartedly agree with you. Orthodox should respect the Holy Spirit's guidance of the Latin Church to deal with all of the many problems thorughout the centuries which she has had to deal with. As long as the Latins do not feel they have to force their developements on us, we should in no wise feel compelled to denigrate them for these developements of doctrine. A healthy dose of repsect and charity might suit us Orthodox better. Let us beware of knee-jerk attacks on Latins due to perceived triumphalism. Let us love one another. But Alice, beloved sister, you can take the Orthodox side once in a while!

your brother in Christ's Light,
Ghazar

Dear Ghazar,

I guess you weren't around a few months back on the 'Church Scandals in Greece' thread!

I have stood up for Orthodox positions on more than one occasion, WHEN it was warranted. I don't see it as a matter of 'taking sides'. I think it is a matter of finding common ground in mutual respect and understanding. Christ and His truth are the same for all.

However, the mistruths I have personally heard from Orthodox in many venues (remember, I am a cradle Orthodox that has been heavily involved in my Church for the better part of my adult life, including translating for the Church, teaching, serving on church boards (my husband), and knowing many clergy around the country, etc.) about Roman Catholicism, sometimes for the purpose of prosletyzing, and sometimes just out of shear ignorance being perpetuated, have scandalized me. I shall, in turn refrain from saying more as NOT to scandalize others. I cannot abide that kind of mindset, because I don't see how it is Christian and/or how it serves the great commission of unity.

So, I have personally set out on a mission to bring truth and brotherly love between the two churches. I just don't see minute cultural differences as being such a big deal the way other Orthodox perceive them. I don't think that they will matter one iota before the awesome judgement seat. I don't think that any of it will matter in 'purgatory' or at the 'toll houses' or at the 'forecourts'...call them what you want, prayer for the dead is still prayer for the dead; efficiacious and necessary.

I have learned as much as I can about the RC catechism without having attained the level of scholar like many of you. However, whatever is lacking in the scholarly, I try to make up with in my heart and my soul, and when I am praying in my favorite place, the chapel of our Lady behind the main altar at St. Patrick's Cathedral in NYC, I know that she is telling my soul that she IS there...

In my praxis, I have increasingly become more Orthodox over the past few years, but I don't feel the need to engage in polemics of doctrine or position like other Orthodox do, as that doesn't constitute for me what Orthodox Christianity is supposed to be. Personally, I find it does nothing to edify my spiritual life or attainment of theosis.

So my position is ultimately not one of Catholic or Orthodox, but one of love and unity. I have spiritually grown so much from both. I am truly sorry if that comes across as somehow not being Orthodox.

In the Risen Christ,
Alice

Dear Alice,

You gave a very serious answer to a humorous lighthearted question. Because of its seriousness, you deserve a serious reply. I hesitate to do so because I'm sad to disagree with someone I have such a respect for.

I not only admire your love and desire for unity with our Latin brethren, to a great extent, I share it (as can be clearly seen by my two above posts on this very thread). But I don't see this desire we share as something obligating myself to agree with them on every single point. Sometimes brotherly love involves disagreeing and speaking the truth in love, doesn't it?

I found the three possibilities you offered for why Orthodox Christians disagree with Latin Catholics, rather disturbing. They are (as you stated) either a result of Orthodox desiring to proselytize, a result of sheer ignorance, or just a result of minute cultural differences being made a big deal of. If this is what you believe, its no wonder you always seem to agree with the Catholics against the Orthodox. I'm sorry, but I don't think you are correct here. I don't think your above categories fit my ancestors case who stood up to immense imperial and papal pressure to affirm the Christology they inherited from their Fathers. I don't think St. Photios or St. Mark of Ephesus fit these categories either. Its a fact that Latins in the past have tried to force their theology on us and this has necessitated our Fathers standing up for our received Holy Tradition. There is nothing wrong with those who wish to preserve and pass on this rich heritage of the East as even the former Pope of Rome has written.

You mentioned that your favorite place to pray is in a Catholic Church and that St. Mary is telling you she's there.. That's ok with me, I'm sure she is. When I was a Catholic my favorite place to pray was an Armenian Orthodox Church. In fact, I liked it so much I joined it. Perhaps you are on your way to doing the same? But when you always agree with the Latins against the Orthodox, this does appear as side taking (even if in the name of unity and brotherly love). Please remember, while your establishing unity with the Catholics you might be doing the opposite with your own Orthodox brethren. Perhaps this isn't as important.

I agree unity and consensus can be accomplished between our historic Churches. But it surely will not come by one side simply caving in on every point to the other in the name of unity. We certainly have our own authentic tradition that we should remain faithful too. Every time we Orthodox disagree with our Latin brethren, this does not mean we are engaging in polemics, proselytizing, being ignorant or petty. I think you really insult your Orthodox brethren by insinuating such. Believe me, I know we Orthodox can be guilty of all of these -and how! But, I hope you recognize, so can Catholics. If you really desire unity you should be just as righteously indignant at them when they do it as you are fed up with Orthodox when we do it. If you think I'm advocating being polemical by stating all of the above, it is I who am truly sorry.

your brother, trusting in Christ's Light,
Wm. Ghazar

Someone will have to sooner or later and thats not against anyone in particular but it is a fact. I mean lets stop slapping each other with velvet gloves on and be honest. If purgation happens instantaneously at the end of time as you maintained Ghazar then there are no iffs and buts about it: The Latin Church is wrong because she teaches that souls can be freed from purgatory prior to the final judgement by acts of intercession made on their behalf. If the Armenian view is right then we Latins are in error, fin. Alternatively, if we're right and you're not then you are in error.

There are somethings that can be rightly attributed to cultural differences and others that simply cannot. Either the final purification begins upon death or it happens at Armaggeddon. They both cant be true. The former can make room for the latter, but the latter certainly cannot make room for the former because it is a definitive temporal refence. If unity is a real hope then someone is going to have concede on points of conflict and we have to be honest with ourselves and admit this.

In this way I disagree with both Alice and Ghazar. I dont think that this difference can be simply reduced to cultural vantage points if Ghazar is presenting his tradition accurately. Nor do I believe that it is possible to hold to everything in ones own tradition if unity is going to be a real possibility. I mean Ghazar you cited Mark of Ephesus but his views on final purification sound at odds with yours also. Again Ephesus' views and ours cant both be true and any casual onlooker could note this (that being said the RC view seems to be edging closer and closer towards the Greek stance with the words 'fire' being used increasingly as a metaphor and purgatory being viewed these days more as a process than a place). In the end someone has to bow down in this argument or else it will be go on perpetually.

Personally I think thats one part of Ecumenical dialogue that people often overlook.