www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Purgatory

Dear Ghazar,

Thank you for your post, but we will have to agree to disagree. You just don't know my experiences and as I said in my previous post, I don't want to get into them in order to not scandalize.

I don't want to live in the past. I want to live in the present and the future.

I truly do not see differences where others do. I am sorry about this. This is where I am on my spiritual journey, a journey that has been aided equally by Catholics and Orthodox....I may die tomorrow and I don't think that ANY of this will matter before the awesome judgement seat, the only thing that will matter is if I was I a good, humble, loving and faithful Christian. I don't think that there will be theological discussions before the throne of our Lord, Christ, And I KNOW that I will see non-Orthodox there. I don't feel that one needs to be Orthodox to have a ticket to Heaven.

Since Father Gregory also got flack for breathing with two lungs, I shall consider joining him and leaving this forum in order to keep the Orthodox happy.I have tried very hard to share the light of Christ with my brethren privately and publicly, because for me, that is ultimately what it is all about...not 'taking sides'.

Please forgive me of what you perceive as my "Catholic siding"...I think I have been a faithful Orthodox, and have shared that and even promoted that with people here, but every few months an Orthodox insults me, or tries to discredit me, and I think that I have really had enough.

Sadly,
In Christ, my LORD and Saviour,
and our unity,
Alice

Dear Brother Myles,

I think you are dead wrong. You missed the points of both of my posts you referred to. In the case of my post to our dear sister Alice, you didn't recognize that I said, unity "will not come by one side simply CAVING IN ON EVERY POINT to the other in the name of unity" (qouted with added emphasis). I did not say that there couln't be any "give and take." You, can't agree with me because you are taking an absolutist approach, i.e., either one side is absolutely correct on purgatory or the other side is absolutely right on their view. What you fail to recognize is the possibillity that we can sit down together (e.g. in an Ecumenical Council or through joint theological statements) and see where our commonality of Tradition is. This commonality alone could be declared the dogmatic truth we must all agree with in a re-united Church. This was the precise point I was making in my former post on purgatory (which you also missed). Apparently, your zeal for absolute defined truth has blinded you to these very simple points.

Finally you contradicted yourself by first affirming absolutist principles (either the Latins are totally right or the others) and then admitting the Latin view is bending to accomadate more of the Eastern view. In so doing you, again, acknowledged the very point I was trying to make.

Dear Sister Alice,

You are right, I do not know your experiences. I know for certain the Eastern Orthodox are very hostile toward Catholics in comparison to Armenian Orthodox (who are generally very open to dialogue with Catholics). Perhaps this is where we are missing one another? But there's no sense quiting. I'm sure you will soon be reading on this thread, all kinds of posts of people begging you not to go. I'm sure they'd much rather see me go than you. If you quit, I quit too. In fact, if my comments were that hurtful to you that they made you want to quit posting, I'm sorry. If you like, I won't make anymore replies to you again (if that helps). Or if you want, I'll leave the forum entirely, if that's the only way you feel you could stay. I certainly didn't think trying to make the point to a sister in Christ would make her feel so aweful she'd want to quit. I'm sorry my words had this effect.

My zeal for absolute truth? Ghazar there can only be one absolute truth. We're talking about absolute truth Himself? And notice I did mention that us Latins have changed our understanding of purgatory in light of the Ecumenical dialogue with the Greeks. I didnt say the Latins are always right. I just said that when two claims conflict sometimes one side has to admit their wrong. Subtly the Latin Church seems to be reinterpreting their traditional literalism in their teaching of final purgation so it more closely aligns itself with the teaching of the East. If you read my post as saying Latins are always right and Easterners are always wrong then I think you read me incorrectly. My point was simply that sometimes we must be willing to change in order to pursue the Ecumenical dialogue.

That being said I dont think what I said about purgatory is absolutionist. If purgation happens only at the end then the Latin Church is wrong in its teachings. Thats not absolutionist thats just a fact. Because the Latin Church teaches that people are purged prior to the day of judgement and leave purgatory prior to the day of judgement. Now if people are only purged at the end of time the Roman Church is teaching something that is objectively errenous, is she not? Regardless of what she may or may not teach on the subject if God has not freed the souls in a state of final purification and is not going to do so until the end then she what she is teaching has no basis in reality. It corresponds to no objective reality and therefore must be deemed as false. There's no two ways about it, is there? If we say they emerge from purgatory before the end and someone else says no they dont one side has to be correct because these are temporal references. I dont think thats absolutionism, I think thats the same view Christians have always taken to these debates. There is a truth and debate is to get to that truth.

I dont imagine that the Roman Church will emerge from ecumenical dialogue with every single one of its traditions in tact or holding the form they held before this venture began. Purgatory is one example of where two conflicting claims have had to be reconciled by one side altering its understanding and there will be others. All of us, Latin, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox must be open to the fact that there are things now taught by our respective traditions that wont be taught in a united Church.

Dear Ghazar�


Dear Ghazar� here is what Alice said ..
And here is what Alice did not say�
I don�t think you understood her properly.

She was talking about her personal experience with - some Orthodox - and you extended that way too far.

-ray

To all involved in this discussion about purgatory. We have to understand one thing, all 'pure' Greek words are verbs. All concepts are formed by verbs and their who knows how many endings. I believe Clasical Greek had about 300.

In the West, these verbs automatically become nouns. We think in more structural terms, thus purgatory becomes a place, etc.

As for 'time', to us it is a sequence of experiences. These experiences cease when we die. Thus time does not exist, at least in the form we now know it.

Zenovia

Dear Zenovia:

You are absolutely brilliant!

When studying the Hebrew of the old testament - this was a big break through for me - to realize that the older the language the more the noun was actually - a verb. An action. And that all nouns were originally - verbs.

The verb (action) becomes a noun in sign and symbol - but the noun - always points to and is sign of the original human experience of - an action.

Plumber (noun) from the verb action to-plumb.
Policeman (noun) from the verb action of policing.

Etc�

English, I think more than any other language, tends to harden the noun into a static thing - removing it from the experience of an action.

As any language evolves and develops there is a tendency for its words to become more restricted to a particular - while the older languages were more universal.

So today, in the most modern English, we now need to string out word after word modifying words and yet more words - to say what earlier languages said in very few words.

One problem with the misunderstanding of Purgatory as a 'place' may arise from the fact that Purgatory is the actually the name (title) name of - the doctrine. And the doctrine itself is - an action - that there is an action of purgation done to souls after death.

So in the phrase "must spend time in Purgatory" what looks like a noun is really a ver which referes back to the action described in the doctrine.

I am not sure how someone who can understand the concept of tollhouses - can not understand the concept of Purgatory - and misunderstands it as a place. Perhaps he might think that little wooden houses with dwarfs collect money in the afterlife?? which would certainly be more of a heresey that Purgatory being - a place.

But a double standard is applied.

Of course heaven is not a place or location either - yet we speak of �going to heaven� as if it were.

The theology of the East and the West - both - use apophatic and catophatic language.

Un-created energy (one term cancels the other term)<Eastern theology>

Created grace (one term cancels the other term)
Etc�
<Western theology>

But a double standard seems to often be applied - one side refusing to recognize the catophatic language of the other - insisting on a literal meaning for all word used by the other guy - but free from that rule himself.

The limits - of words.

Your revelation to us - the gem that it is - may unfortunately blow away like a leaf in the wind in this forum.

Anyway - I think it is time for a vacation from this forum for a bit. I will check only for private messages.

Bye.

-ray

No way. Zenovia this is one heck of a gem. Inspite of having to learn those Verb tables for my Greek prelim exam it never clicked in my mind how vastly different the Teutonic tongues like English treated nouns and verbs. I know, I'm slow. But no Ray this one will not die. Even if I have to intervene in the thread every page and post it again. This for me is ground breaking. I'd never thought of it that way...genius.

Dear Friends,

Certainly, there were Orthodox teachers who knew Latin and who understood the view that purgatory is indeed a "place" as at Florence and also St Peter Mohyla, Metropolitan of Kyiv.

Mohyla made Latin the official language of his Orthodox academy. And Mohyla understood and accepted the Latin doctrine of purgatory.

In fact, he included it in his original Catechism and even CONTINUED to teach it in his Metropolia when the rest of the Orthodox Church decided to change that part of his Catechism.

Meyendorff refers to Greek theologians who also understood and accepted Western views on Original Sin, Purgatory etc.

I think we simply should not be quick to see this as a matter of language and that the Orthodox believed the same thing as the West but expressed it in a seemingly different doctrine as a result of language.

That is just not true, many Orthodox knew Latin and Greek and Slavonic as scholars and STILL accepted the Western view on Purgatory - as Schmemann notes, the result of the Baroque era theology.

Alex

Dear Alice and William,

There can be more than one view on eschatology that Eastern Christians may hold without somehow betraying their traditions.

Personally, I think we should always be attuned to the situation of tension that is healthy and that should exist between what unites us (hopefully as one Church-of-churches in future) and what is unique to our respective traditions.

Ghazar made the point about the final purification at the Last Judgement. That is not the Byzantine view, but it is not, for that matter, any less valid.

Alex

Dear Rayk,

I've already apologized and tried to end this, but if you want to rehash it, then alright, we can.

I disagree with your interpretation. Originally, I was expressing my conviction that it makes little sense to me to take the Latin side on every debate that arises on this forum. The ONLY REASONS OFFERED to me for taking such an approach were the one's I quoted. I had no intention of putting words in one's mouth or misqouting. I was simply putting two and two together.

Now I have acknowledged that one person's experience of certain Orthodox could be much different and worse than that of my own (coming from my own Oriental Orthodox tradition). This could explain why someone would have a very negitive feeling about members of their own Church while I do not share these. I acknowledged this and apologized for anything I said to upset anyone. What more should I do?

Dear Myles,

you wrote:
"My zeal for absolute truth?"

reply: No. That's not what I said. Why are you having such a hard time understanding me? I apologize if I am being unclear. What I said was, "your zeal for absolutely defined truth." An example of this is how you are so hung up on defining "when" the healing takes place and seeing this as an issue that one side must cave in on to the other. That's absolutist. To me, what you have written about one side giving in to the other is much ado about nothing, because no Church has really defined to my knowledge, the "when." So, again, I think you're wrong. If we all agree cleansing and healing takes place after death, that prayers are effective for those who rest, then this well could be ENOUGH.

you said:
"Ghazar there can only be one absolute truth."

reply: Yes but there can be more than one way of explaining and looking at this truth.

you wrote:
"I didnt say the Latins are always right... If you read my post as saying Latins are always right and Easterners are always wrong then I think you read me incorrectly.

reply: Don't worry, I didn't.

you wrote:
"My point was simply that sometimes we must be willing to change in order to pursue the Ecumenical dialogue."

reply: I disagree. I don't think any ancient, apostolic Church should or can change the authentic Tradition they have received. I think they must stay true to these or become apostate. What they can do instead of "changing" or "giving in" or "admitting they are wrong" is simply to see where their recieved Tradition has commonality with that of the other Chruches' received Tradition and agree to agree on this.

I agree with you whole-heartedly! Tension equals balance. You took the words right... out of my mind (what mind?).

Dear Ghazar,

I am very hurt, and it makes it VERY difficult to get over that hurt when such blanket statements are continuing to be made.

Have you read each and every post of mine on this forum for the past three years? If you had, you would know that such a blanket statement is clearly WRONG, and truly, it hurts me to be the object of such misrepresentation.

I have PROMOTED Orthodox praxis and tradition greatly. I have defended the Church of Greece's position on reinstatement of deaconesses, I have questioned Latin female Eucharistic ministers, I have condemned Latin liturgical abuses and modern ecclesial architecture, I have questioned certain points made by the Latins such as the age of St. Joseph, etc., etc., etc.,---and quite frankly, I don't believe that I have been put so much on the defensive that I have to bring these up!

In other words, I must be negative in order to PROVE that I am Orthodox? THAT is exactly the type of thing I have experienced, and what I have been alluding to. Can we not rejoice in Orthodox tradition and practice, and accept Orthodox converts as people who have embraced a deeper understanding of faith, and leave it at that..must we also be negative about the Latins as a prerequisite for being Orthodox?

Why can't some of our priests just rejoice in sharing their faith without the usual, "unlike the Catholics"..... Why can't we find where we are alike, such as I tried to do with the state of purification known as Purgatory, and which we Orthodox don't even have concensus about. My monastic friends talk of ' aerial toll houses' and my Archdiocese talks of 'forecourts of heaven and hell' and condemns the 'aerial toll houses' as pure heresy (!!)...but we ALL, Catholics, monastic Orthodox and SCOBA and non-SCOBA Orthodox, agree on the efficacy of prayer for the souls of the dead.

I am very tired of defending my Orthodoxy to my own people. Putting myself aside, because it is not about me, (I am just an insignificant sinner who is trying to carry out the path God has set out for my life and nothing more), it does nothing to edify others about what the Orthodox faith is about.

This is a Byzantine CATHOLIC forum. The Byzantine Catholics practice Orthodoxy but are allied with the Bishop of Rome. From the fruits that I have encountered here, they are wonderful, charitable and loving Christian people who are trying to bridge the East and the West. I was under the assumption that I could breathe with two lungs here, be myself, and feel the comfortable niche that I have been seeking for years with Christians of like mind....

After all, let's remember that we are guests here.

With forgiveness and love for Christ's sake,
Alice

Alice,

I think you are jumping to conclusions. Notice I didn't refer to you? That's because I was just trying to make a general point that although Orthodox (like you an I) want unity with our Latin brethren, we can't "always agree with them on every point."

If you have not done this (which I'm sure you haven't) then you and I agree on this point. Where is the argument here? Besides, how could I possibly know what you've written in every one of your posts, I wouldn't even begin to presume. Sorry you think that I'm trying to insult and attack you. I'm not.