www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Purgatory

Alice, please stick around. Yours are among the most well thought out posts on this MB.

As I've been somewhat remiss these past 2 weeks in reading the Forum as thoroughly as I usually do, I haven't kept up with this thread and still must admit to not having read it thoroughly. From skimming it, I'd have to acknowledge that my own beliefs on the processes of punishment and purification in the afterlife are likely most akin to those of my brother, Incognitus, heretical though some of my brethren might find those. But, as my seldom-expressed thoughts on matters theological aren't likely to be (and shouldn't be) dispositive to anyone else's acceptance or rejection of any concept, that isn't my reason for posting to the thread.

I merely want to express the fact that an earthly analogy to the pain of purgatory would, for me, include the loss to this forum of my sister, Alice, or my brother, Bill. Among the many here whose acquaintance I treasure, if I were to name the dozen for whom I have the greatest love and respect, their names would be prominent. They consistently exhibit the respect and charity for others that so often eludes many of us (myself included); they contribute immeasurably, each in their own way, to our understanding of the matters which they elect to address; and, both of them pray for and yearn, without question, for the day that all of our Churches are united as one, a day that will unquestionably be pleasing to God and the Holy Theotokos.

I say this with no clear understanding of the solution. The nature of this forum is, in my experience, unique on the net. It brings together Eastern, Oriental, and Western Catholics and Orthodox, as well as Protestants, and the occasional Muslim, of all stripes, plaids, and designs, with no preconception of itself as a serious polemical or apologetic environment. That doesn't mean that it's a wishy-washy place or that serious discussion is verboten - it happens all the time.

Inevitably, therefore, moments will arise when the hard subjects come up - those on which legitimate disagreement exists between and among our Churches or is perceived to exist. We will not solve those here, being as we are neither empowered to do so by our respective Churches and, as far as anyone's displayed credentials here, nor are any of us ecclesiastically licensed to authoritatively interpret the "legislative intent" of the various Councils and Synods of history. Thus, the best we can do is to offer our personal opinions of whatever appears to us as the plain meaning of the written words of those who recorded the pronouncements of those august bodies.

I would suggest that, with the exception of those few statements which one encounters in one's life that admit to only a single interpretation, statements of one's opinion - in accord to or at odds with that of another - is a useful means by which to better understand our own beliefs and those of others and by which to realize that they agree or disagree. When we proceed from that to questioning the other's orthodoxy (note - lower case "o" - Catholics and Orthodox of all persuasions, feel free to understand the word as applicable to all of you), I am unconvinced that a useful purpose is served.

Reunion of our Churches or conversion of one of them (for purists who see "reunion" as an impossible concept) will not be brought about in a venue such as this forum. This place is important because it offers for us, individual Christians, a way to get to know one another and understand and explore each other's theological understandings, as well as to discuss both the mundane and the celestial aspects of liturgy, chant, and other praxis, and to pray with and for each other without fear of having anathemas hurled at us for spiritually communing with the heterodox.

Cleansing of the soul in the afterlife will happen, however God sees fit to have it happen, and the particular picture that I or any other have painted in my mind as to it will not change that fact. It is not something about which I can do anything, except to try and live my life in a manner that minimizes the necessity for my soul to be purified and to offer prayers for the souls of the reposed. Meanwhile, I can, instead, and will, pray for the continued viability of this forum and that those wonderful persons whose personal spirituality contributes mightily to it will not leave - we have lost others in the near past whose wisdom and insights are missed, it would be nice not to have that happen again.

Alice and Bill, my prayers that both of you will see fit to remain. This community, this family, would be diminished without the presence of both of you.

Many years,

Neil

Thanks Neil, for your kind words.

I just want to go on record and say once again, I too highly value Alice's input on the forumn over the years. I have nothing but respect for her. Her approach to Catholics -one of reaching out and seeking understanding- I think, is refreshing. This is in comparison to the common Orthodox approach which often seeks to belittle Latin theological Tradition in preference for our own Orthodox Tradition. I pray I haven't done this very often. I try to maintain a healty respect for Latin Tradition as an authentic expression of Holy Tradition (which I believe it is).

I'm sorry that my original little line teasing Alice about her (what seemed to me) overly irenic and one-sided approach in favor of Catholics, turned into all of this. I was just teasing with her. This is my personality. Far be it from me to actually call someone like her to be a great "defender of Orthodoxy" by doing battle against all the Catholics on the forum.

She, understandably, didn't like my teasing and defended her approach. I thought her defence painted Orthodox in a broad, bad light. She was obviously speaking about her personal experiences. I defended Orthodox as not that bad (in my experience) and reiterated what I thought was a more balanced approach to dialogue. She was further insulted by my, admittedly, bad wording... etc, etc.

All I can say to Alice is I'm sorry my teasing turned into an insult. I'm sorry my suggestions turned into a perceived questioning of your Orthodoxy. I'm sorry my defending Orthodox, turned into a questioning of your veracity.

None of us are perfect in our approach to dialogue with our seperated brethren. If your only fault (in my insignificant estimation) is that you err on the side of charity, then you should probably rejoice in this appraisal. For it is better to err on the side of love than anything else.

Personally, if that is your mission, then far be it from to me to want to interfere with it. Personally, I feel a mission to try to maintain charity with both sides, my Orthodox brethren and my Latin brethren. God give us strength to fulfill our missions. I respect where you are coming from and am sorry for having offended you. Please forgive me this wrong.

p.s. Neil, I'm going to wait and see whether we are quiting or not. If she quits, so do I. Or I'll leave if she prefers, so she can stay. Hopefully, she'll accept my apology and we can both stay.

I agree with you very much on this, Ghazar. There *are* real differences, as well as real commonalities, between the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics. Those differences must recognized and explored fully if any genuine reunion if going to be achieved. I'm saying that as a Latin Rite Catholic who loves and respects my Eastern Orthodox brethren.

Personally, sometimes I think the Roman Catholics have the right ideas. Sometimes, I think the Eastern Orthodox have the right ideas. Sometimes, as with the issue of purification of the soul after death, I think both sides are saying essentially the same thing but using different language from different perspectives. And sometimes, I think the truth lies somewhere in-between and that it has yet to be accurately understood and expressed. But all of this requires the humility and *love* to honestly express our points of view, including to acknowledge our differences.

I think you do that well, Ghazar.

I think you also do that well, Alice.

And I just hope that what is perhaps a misunderstanding can be forgiven in Christian charity.

--John

Dear William,

OFCOURSE, I accept your apology!

As you can see from that 'other thread', I go through alot of attacks on my Orthodoxy, and on my character, so I can get a bit touchy and sensitive at times.

I may take some time off to think because of that 'other thread'--- NOT because of you- so please stay around...I will be back soon if God wills it!

Might I say that you are an admirable example of Christian male integrity in being able to apologize to me. Thank you for that...

With much love in Christ, and forgiveness for His sake,
Humbly,
Alice

Thank you, Alice. I look forward to your return and being able benefit from your friendly presence and fine example of Orthodox Christian tolerance on this forum.

Wm. Ghazar

p.s. Thank you, John, for your kind comments. I think you have excellent attitude and approach to the topic of our historic division and ways to heal it.

Dear Ghazar:

You have edified us all with the true humility of your apology to alice and your short explination of what you had intened to say.

The typed word is such a poor way to say things. Voice inflection is missing - yet we do write our notes like voice inflection was there. This is an area where many things get misinterpreated. I hate email and forums for that reason - at the same time I like them for thier ability to connect people from far that I would never have any other way to meet. I think this is what happened in this case - that which you had intended philosophically appeared in type as personal to others. Whatever the reason - your own responce once the hurt was made clear - your own responce was way far admirable to us all. I know it was to me.

My respect for you has incerased now to 110% and in the furture I will know just a bit better how to read your posts and discover your wisdom.

I am not sure if I am capable of also being able to have such humility. I am Polish you know

Now - if my respect was only worth a penny in people's minds - you would be on your way to $1.00 !

I am so happy that people like you and alice are at this board.

-ray

Dear Ray,

I feel the same way about you, brother. Thanks for your very kind words and understanding. Someone once said, "I would sin like David if only I could repent like David" (cf. Ps. 50 LXX). Well, perhaps I've gotten good at offering apologies becuase I'm so apt to put my foot in my mouth? If practice makes perfect... I'm certainly on my way (but perfect at what?). Thanks for writing.

p.s. Wouldn't it be interesting if the Byzantine Forum organized (or suggested) periodic get-togethers perhaps meeting at places where conferences on the faith are taking place? It would kind of be like a home coming or family reunion to meet one another after all of us have been writing one another for so long. Has anyone ever tried this to your knowledge?

Well, there is always the Our Lady of Perpetual Help pilgrammage in Uniontown, PA. every Labor Day weekend. That is as good a meeting place as any.
I am fairly certain that there is an Orthodox Church in or somewhere near Uniontown. As for Byzantine and Latin Churches, well, that goes without saying.

XB!

Perhaps he believes in Apocolocyntosis!

Dear Edward,

And I'm getting to be a bit apoplectic . . .

It is amazing how our dedicated Members here can come to blows over what no one can be sure of!

Now that's REAL commitment!

As long as we limit the blows, however . . .

Alex