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Moscow Orthodox Leaders Oppose Greek Catholic Plan To Move Center To Kyiv

<B>LVIV, UKRAINE, Mar 09, 02 (RISU.org.ua) &#8211; The announcement by the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (UGCC) that it plans to move its center from Lviv (western Ukraine) to Kyiv has been met with opposition by the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate (UOC-MP). The statements of Archbishop Auhustyn of Lviv and Halych (UOC-MP), Andrii Derkatch, a national deputy in Ukraine's Parliament, and Kateryna Samoilyk, head of the Ukrainian branch of the International Fund for Unity Among the Orthodox People, were released on 1 and 4 March 2002 on the site of Orthodoxy in Ukraine.

&#8220;Moving the office of the head of the UGCC from Lviv to Kyiv and creating Catholic eparchies in Russia show that the masks have been finally thrown off. This means returning to the East, about which the Roman Catholics have always spoken&#8230; They do not consider us true Christians and perceive the world as their canonical territory&#8230; This is real religious expansionism,&#8221; declared Archbishop Auhustyn.

The archbishop drew an analogy between the acts of Catholics in Ukraine and the behavior of the USA. &#8220;At first, the US tried to gain our confidence by declaring that it fought against the Soviet threat, and now it introduces its own rules and establishes it own orders,&#8221; said the Orthodox archbishop. &#8220;In such conditions,&#8221; he continued, &#8220;the Orthodox Church must realize its role of a mother-church in Ukraine and develop its own conception of service.&#8221;

According to Archbishop Auhustyn, his parishioners are discriminated against by &#8220;Uniate pressure in western Ukraine.&#8221; The archbishop called upon the general public to protest against the erection of Catholic churches in Kyiv.

Andrii Derkatch, national deputy and also head of the association of national deputies &#8220;Towards Europe Together with Russia,&#8221; believes that moving the residence of the UGCC head to Kyiv will add more tension into the religious sphere. &#8220;Most Greek Catholic Ukrainians live in western Ukraine, so it is logical that the center of the UGCC is in Lviv. This transfer to Kyiv de facto means proselytism among the Orthodox population in central, eastern and southern Ukraine&#8230; We shouldn't forget that Ukraine has traditionally been an Orthodox country and canonical Orthodoxy has always been its religion, largely contributing to state formation.&#8221; According to Derkatch, missionary activities conducted by the UGCC in eastern Ukraine will infringe upon the rights of the Orthodox.

Kateryna Samoilyk assessed the move of the Greek Catholic religious center from Lviv to the capital as, &#8220;an open challenge to canonical Orthodoxy.&#8221; According to Samoilyk, not only Ukraine but Orthodoxy on the whole will be affected by this move. &#8220;If the state authorities, in particular the State Committee on Religious Matters, do consider Ukraine an Orthodox state, then they should take a definitive stand concerning the latest acts of the Uniates,&#8221; said Samoilyk. </B>

Source: www.orthodox.org.ua [orthodox.org.ua]


Suprise, Suprise!

Ality

Dear Ality,

The Russian Patriarchate in Kyiv ("Ukrainian Orthodox Church" Moscow Patriarchate - although there is nothing "Ukrainian" about it) appears to forget that it was the Orthodox Metropolitan of Kyiv that originally signed the Union of Brest-Litovsk, for better or for worse.

That means that Kyiv is also an Eastern Catholic centre, as well as being an Orthodox centre.

The Ukrainian Orthodox Churches haven't protested against their Eastern Catholic brothers setting up shop in Kyiv.

Only the Russians.

The Russians have their Third Rome in Moscow.

If they can't behave as democratic citizens of a free Ukraine, they should GO HOME TO THEIR THIRD ROME!

(That felt wonderful!)

Alex

Praise God!

Islam and other "sects" always benefit by the mutual hatred you Catholics and Orthodox have for one another.

Perhaps the endemic hatred that exists between various Christian sects in Eastern Europe and the
Balkans is the will of God; His will that Islam will spread in these regions and bring unity where there is now religious anarchy and discord between neighbors.

This was the role played by Islam in previous centuries in those regions. Those of you who are historians of the Balkans know that one of the reasons Islam spread so quickly--other than crass opportunism--was because of the disunity between Christian sects and because of the mutual hatred which was--depending on the region--sometimse lethal.


Are we witnessing a revival of European Islam on the ashes of a self-destructing and mutually hateful "Christianity?" Is the hatred the Catholics and Orthdoox have for one another---don't deny that it is hate since actions speak louder than words--one of the primary reasons that Islamic missionaries have been successful in the former Soviet Republic?

Or are non-Christians correct in questioning whether Catholicism and Orthodoxy are legitimate expressions of the faith of Jesus of Nazareth?

What has happened in the last couple of months to sabotage the Catholic/Orthodox attempts at reconciliation?


Abdur

Dear Abdur,

This issue has less to do with Catholic/Orthodox hatred, and more with the struggle of Ukrainians with their former colonial masters.

And is that about hate, or is it about human and other rights?

Is struggle for one's rights forbidden by the Koran? How does Islam understand this?

And as for the spread of Islam throughout Europe, are you saying that Islam's military might had no role to play in this?

And the severe repercussions, social and otherwise, faced by Christians under Muslim regimes?

Alex

[ 03-20-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

What I must classify as hatred between Christian sects transcends national and ethnic conflicts--though those conflicts certainly exist.

Yes, Islam did benefit by its superior martial skills and the devotion of her warriors in the conquering of Christian lands.

But people are quick to forget that Christianity--beginning with Constantine--was also spread by the sword, and heretics were often exterminated or forcibly converted by the Church. For example, as difficult as it is to comprehend today because of the Palestinian-Israeli blood bath, Jews fared much better under Islam than they did under Christianity.

But that isn't the main issue. The main issue, for me, is whether it is now time for Muslims to take the message of the unity of God and religion to a European people who have lost faith in a Christianity that is hopelessly divided against itself and seems to spread disunity--even within "the House"--wherever it is established.

The souls that God has created for His glory and pleasure deserve a clearer message of God's will and word than that of the mixed messages of conflicting Christian sects.

Since many--maybe the majority--of Europeans have rejected Christianity, perhaps it is the will of God that Islam save these benighted souls from the ravages of paganism.


Abdur

[ 03-20-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Dear Abdur,

Well, I think that people are simply that - people.

By your own admission, Islam is guilty of the things Christians do as well.

Division and war have always existed.

If the example of the followers are the only thing we go by, then we are all to become what, members of the Bahai faith?

Alex

But Islam is a faith based on a few common principles and is more immune to the chronic theological disunity that is so evident within Christianity.

I think this simplicity of doctrine and practice is very appealing to those who feel alienated from the confusion that exists within contemporary Christianity.

Abdur

Abdur,
I dont know about this. From my, albeit limited, look into Islam I must disagree with you here.

You have the Wahabis, the Sunni, the Shia, the Dervish and all the sub groups within them.

And each group has their own 'version' of the Qur'an with comments that the other groups do not believe. I got a copy of the Qur'an though the mail and my friend, who is a shia, says that it is produced out of Saudia Arabia by the wahabis, she can tell this by the commentary included, which goes against what the shia teach.

You yourself deny the haddith, which also seems to be a point of divergence with many muslims, some believe all of them, some only some (depending on the group these groups don't even agree on which), and some, such as yourself, believe none of them.

It just seems that muslims keep their disagreements between themselves and hide it from the rest of the world.

Your brother in Christ,
David

ps Abdur, it is nice that you decided to rejoin us here, maybe this time we can treat you better, and by we I mean me

[ 03-20-2002: Message edited by: DavidB ]

We just don't have as much to disagree about! That is my point.

I am sure that if Islam was as complex ( and contradictory) as Christianity is, we would also suffer from so much confusion.

Certainly, I walk on the edge of what is considered normative Islam. Most Muslims are much more to the center of Islamic belief than I am; in fact, the majority are.

Abdur

Again, I disagree, you point is that muslims do not disagree in public, they certainly do with each other. Islam is just as confusing as other faiths, especially given the fact that there is no central authority. Any Imans' interpetation is as valid as any other ones.

Just look at the different understandings of Jihad.

Just look at the contradicting fatwas. There is one that calls for the killing of westerners, americans in particular. There is another one that says a muslim may serve in the US armed forces in the war against the Taliban.

The problem is there, just not as publicized.

But all of this is off the topic.

David

[ 03-20-2002: Message edited by: DavidB ]

It's nice that Islam is based on common principles, but Christianity, however imperfect, is based on a person: Our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ. Islam may one day be 90% of the world--it doesn't matter becuase it isn't true. When Jesus returns on the last day, you will have to answer to him why you denied he is God in the flesh.

anastasios

MOSCOW ORTHODOX LEADERS OPPOSE CATHOLIC PLAN TO WORSHIP JESUS

(AP--MOSCOW) Saying that Jesus is "OUR God", the Moscow Patriarchate has entered a lawsuit against the Catholic Church for claiming to be the "Church that Jesus founded."

"Everyone knows that Jesus founded the Russian Orthodox Church in Moscow. It was only Pope Victor I who made up the whole 'Jerusalem' thing with the Bishop of Jerusalem," said Metropolitan Svyatopluk of Ikrutskovosk. "As such, we count Jesus Christ himself as the first bishop of Moscow, and that the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Pope of Rome can kiss our Slavic behind!" he commented.

Informed that Ukrainian Orthodox tend to side with the Catholics over the Moscow Patriarchate, Metropolitan Svyatopluk responded, "Well when you can't even speak Russian correctly, how do you expect to know anything about Church issues?!" A Ukrainian spokesman immediately denounced his words.

The world now waits by for the next official pronouncement from Moscow--whether the Georgians really deserve a Catholicosate. And on Friday--Patriarch Alexy will critique the War on Terror.

(I am a bit jaded by the recent Russian events. Can you tell?! --anastasios)

[ 03-20-2002: Message edited by: anastasios ]

Dear Anastasios,

In the good old days of St Peter Mohyla, the Russians were peeved at the Ukies for their use of Latin in the seminaries, Catholic and Orthodox!

The Russians also tend to group both Ukie Catholics AND Orthodox (the "schismatics" you know) into the same "Uniate" camp as the "Kyivan Church."

We've always been looked on with suspicion for our uniate tendencies and the like.

You just can't trust those Ukies. They're a bad lot and the world would be better off without them.

The sooner they are Russified completed, and are taught to speak Russian correctly and worship the only true Russian God properly, the better!

Actually, after reading something like this, can we blame someone like Abdur for saying what he has?

I, for one, don't fault him!

Alex

Now Alex.....

You faulted us for doing almost the same thing to him last time he was here.

It is wrong for him to show up here only to promote his "religion". After all this is a christian forum.

What he is doing smacks of proselytizing. An attempt to make his "religion" appear superior to our by distorting the truth.

I do fault him on this point, that is why I spoke up.


Your brother in Christ,
David

Dear David,

O.K., O.K. I agree Abdur shouldn't have said what he said.

I was only speaking rhetorically.

I apologise.

But what can you expect from a Ukie like me who doesn't speak Russian correctly?

You shouldn't even take me seriously, Big Guy, I'm a hopeless case, da?

God bless and have a spiritually meaningful Holy Week on the New Calendar!

Alex