www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Relations with Islam: Part II

Don't tell your Palestinian Catholic or Orthodox friends that "Palestine belongs to Israel." I,like you, support the Jews against the Palestinians.

As Jesus said, "there will be wars and rumors of war," and throughout history, Christendom has been the mother of all warmongers.

Chechyna: It isn't your fault that you are ignorant of her history, but she was a free and independent nation until the Russians invaded in 1786. Like the Poles and Ukrainians, they are deserve to be a free nation once again.

America embraces the New Islam. You are correct about that, since Islam has the ability to move beyond the past.

I am not surprised that you have no sympathy for the Bosnian "cause."

It is not your fault that Christianity is a religion of slaughter and one predicated upon hate.

Thank you for your candor.


And you must have personal reasons for favoring and supporting the slaughter of Muslims in Indonesia by Christians. On the other hand, Christianity is a religion of violence, so why would there be any need for a rationale? I know that you are a devout Roman Catholic, so I must assume this is the position of the Vatican. Likewise for the slaughter of Bosnian Muslims. I am not surprised since the Vatican also encouraged the slaughter and forced conversion of Orthodox Serbs to Roman Catholicism during WWII.

Your posts certainly make a great deal more sense, now.

BTW: I think you should share your thoughts about Islam with President Bush. According to you, it might be a national security issue. And while you are at it, also share your perspective on Bosnia.

Good luck!

Abdur

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

I personally have a problem with this statement. Yes, Israel belonged to the Jews way back when. That's true. And then the Muslims came in. Now that the Jews want their land back, the Muslims are making problems. Is it really that simple?

Perhaps it is, or perhaps I'm just ignorant...

But before the Jews came to that area from Egypt, it belonged to other groups of peoples, right? Did they not have to take the land from others, even by the use of force? And yet we don't say that the Jews started the problem there, and that everyone knows that the Canaanites (or some other people) really own the land...personally, I'm REALLY hoping that the Canaanites decide to come back and take their home back...we'll see how accomodating everyone is.

Or we don't say too often: "White men started the problem that is North America (everyone knows America belongs to the Native Americans - any history student knows that)." We like to keep ourselves away from things like that.

It's a selective view of history, that doesn't take into account all sides, that causes problems.

Mor Ephrem,

First let me state the obvious my views are my views and are not always the views of the Church. Now with that said, I my beliefs in this matter fall more into the fundies view of Israel. If we believe in the Bible and the Bible says God gave Israel to the Jews then NO ONE on the face of the Planet has any right to argue with God.

Yes, Mor Ephrem I agree with you N.America belongs to the Indians. We should give more land and money to the Native Americans as payment for the abuses of the Europeans.

Abdur, Islam was founded by the sword and by sword as I see it they live. Islam is like a road map to the third world. Many horrible acts Christians have done throughout time were as re-actions to the Islamic world. However, you show me a horrible act done by the Christian community and I will show 2 or 3 more done by the Muslims.

No religion is perfect because religion is made up of men and men are sinners. With that said we must look at the core beliefs with of each religion to judge which one came from God. Christianity says, "Love your neighbor as yourself". Islam says, "Do not take a Christian and Jews as friends because they are friends among themselves. Surely, God will judge the unbelievers". I think I made the right decision in my choice of Religion.

I wish you peace Abdur

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: aRomanCatholic@Work ]

There is no need for you to apologize for the violence that is an inherent part of Christendom. If you have been taught to hate by your religion...so be it.

Your understanding of the Qur'anic verse is literal and taken out of context. You must read what precedes and follows the verse to understand it. Also, you seem to have forgotten my post on the Anglican-Muslim covenant, where the Christian and Muslim participants (including conservative Muslim scholars) speak of their personal friendship for one another. Many...many...Muslims have non-Muslim friends...and even spouses. I don't know if you are married, but a good marriage certainly is predicated on good friendship.


Any objective reader would deduce from your posts that it is not violence that you are against...as long as that violence is committed by Christians against non-Christians, or "heretics."

Maybe you have never read the history of post-Constantinian Christianity, but it was spread by the sword more than by the "spirit" of holy missionaries. That is the lesson that Muhammed learned from Christianity: that religion can be spread by the sword with no apologies required.

And over the centuries, not only was Christianity spread by the sword, but sustained by the sword as well.


It is a very...very painful experience, but sometimes it is good to see things from the other side's point of view. But you have to have a strong faith and a certain amount of emotional maturity to face that difficult task. Do you think I enjoy admitting to the faults of Islam? No, I do not. But I know God demands that I do. If I were a Christian, I would do the same.

"Be not afraid!"

Abdur

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

aRomanCathoic@Work,

I to have a problem with your interpretation of the Palestinians. While I in the past made statments about Islam and the Jews - I should have been more clear and made sure I excluded the Palestinians from that. Infact sometimes I feel like picking up a rifle and going over to the Holy Land to help the Muslim Palestinians fight against the Israelies.

Israel was inhabited by the Palestinians long before Europian Jews arrived there. And While I support the Jews return to their native land, I don't support their inhuman treatment of the Palestinians. Which by the way is a sort of treatment the Jews always claim the Christians (Catholics in particular) did to them. It would be best if both sides would accept each other, but there needs to be mutual respect and justice for that to occur.

Might I add that one of the 4 cardinal virtues is justice. And as a catholic you are charged to be committed to justice not literal Biblical banter. The Protestants you follow on this support the Jewish state because their Protestant American country has intrest over in that region. The Protestant didn't seem to take the Bible to literaly about the Jews being Gods chosen people when they were turned away in boat, trying to escape Nazi persecution. I bet your same Protestants can find quotes in the Bible alluding to the United States involvement in end time revelations - of course the US would also be the harborer of the just.

Tolerance Battles Suspicion Among Bosnia's Serbs

By Daria Sito-Sucic

Sarajevo, Bosnia (Reuters) - There are Sarajevo Serbs who say a
mixture of church bells and calls to prayer at the mosque are music
to their ears.


For Serbs like these, the reopening of a museum of artifacts
mingling the symbols of many faiths at Sarajevo's Orthodox Church
complex, heralds a rebirth of ethnic harmony.


But just as a decade ago, on the eve of the war that ripped Bosnia
apart, their hopes for tolerance have been confronted with suspicion,
distrust and outright death threats from hard-liners among their
ethnic kin.


Multi-ethnic has been branded a charade by the Serbian Orthodox
Church, reflecting deep skepticism among Serbs over whether they
should live together with Bosnia's other peoples.


Most Bosnian Serbs now live in the nationalist-dominated Serb
Republic, a region of Bosnia from which most Croats and Muslims were
expelled during the 1992-95 war. Sarajevo, Bosnia's capital, lies on
the boundary of the Republic and the Muslim-Croat federation.


Sarajevo Serb visitors to the museum at the church said they were as
proud as ever of the city's diverse heritage.


"This means the continuation of a joint life, a general
reconciliation without which there can be no progress for any
people," said Dana, a middle-aged Sarajevo Serb, dressed in her
best fur coat.


Known these days for the vicious 44-month siege it suffered at the
hands of Bosnian Serb forces, Sarajevo was once renowned as a place
where Muslims, Catholics, Orthodox Christians and Jews lived together
in unique harmony.
Tourist guides described the city as a "Small Jerusalem."


The museum houses artifacts donated by Serbs to the church under
centuries of Ottoman Turk rule, including icons, tapestries, books,
manuscripts, and silver and gold objects made by Bosnian craftsmen,
most of them Muslims.


The church's old wooden altar door was stylized with oriental
ornaments under Islamic influence, and Jewish stars of David have
been carved in wood together with Christian crosses.


"I think this is an important element in understanding the
multicultural life that everyone talks about so much today and which
has had always existed here," said Belgrade conservationist Anika
Skovran, whose team restored the museum.


Mirko Pejanovic, head of the Serb Civic Council gathering
Bosnian-oriented Serbs, said that the reopening of the museum had
been a great joy for Sarajevo Serbs and the Orthodox church.
"With this, the city of Sarajevo has completed its cultural
inheritance, cultural tradition and its multiethnic and multicultural
being," said Pejanovic, formerly a Serb member of Bosnia's wartime
multiethnic presidency.


But moderates like Pejanovic are still confronted by Serbs who
cannot accept that some of their kin are ready to live alongside
other peoples.


In early January, a self-styled "Serb terrorist organization" sent
death threats to Pejanovic and nine other Sarajevo Serbs who advocate
co-existence.

The previously unknown group was named after Gavrilo Princip, a
Bosnian Serb who assassinated Austrian Archduke Franz Ferdinand in
1914, sparking World War One.
Those targeted by the threats, including the only Orthodox priest
who stayed in Sarajevo during the war, were denounced as "Muslim
servants" and "Serb traitors."

In another sign of the depth of the rift, the Orthodox church has
threatened to withdraw altogether from the Muslim-Croat federation
that makes up half of postwar Bosnia.
"The Serb Orthodox Church does not want to participate in the
creation of a fake multiethnic image of Bosnia and Herzegovina," its
figurehead Metropolitan Nikolaj said in a statement.
He refused to send a televised Christmas message to Orthodox
believers in the federation, and forbade a televised broadcast of the
Christmas prayer.


But among the Catholic, Orthodox, Muslim and Jewish symbols at the
medieval church, optimism reigned. Dana spent the whole 1992-95 war
in the besieged city alongside Muslims and Croats, under fire from
her ethnic kin.
"Hatred cannot win victory for any nation," she said.
* * *

Christ is in our Midst!

The problem with our friend Abdur and the rest of his childish polemics is that it contains very little truths. The man has tunnel vision to the revealed evils promoted by Islam and his version of Islam does not count. Killing done by anyone despite the religious affiliations is an evil act. His Muhammed was blatantly guilty of this but his brainwashed followers find ways for justifications. Islam has always justified killings whether they be recorded in the Quran, Hadiths, or the Sirats. Early Islam developed upon the usage of the sword and jihads. The rhetoric ploy of Abdur is to convince us that Christianity is evil and that we hate each other. I don't understand why he continues to try to embarrass & frustrate us. I know from experience that these are unsubstantiated Islamic polemics to instill in us doubts and that he has the true Faith. His techniques are manipulative and quite immature. There are no doubts that Christians have done unfortunate killings to one another and to a host of other peoples. However, this does not in no way represent the beliefs of Christ and His True Church. This does not represent the beliefs of the ancient Orthodox Patriarchates. I would like Abdur to answer me one question: name me one Orthodox Patriarchate that has sanctioned the killing of another people? The Western Church (Roman Catholic) does not count. Permit me to say that I think everyone has had enough of Abdur's propagandas & deceptive rhetorics. References to "Christian gangs" has no place or meaning within our Patriachates. This sort of speech stems from the prime center of the Evil One. The Evil One has deluded and innoculated both non-believing Christians & non-Christians such as Abdur. I wonder if the informed Abdur has ever spoken, heard or read about Patriarch Pavle of Serbia during the violent times in the Slavic lands.
Persecution is in the eye of the Evil One and it is obviously expressed in Abdur's posts against the Arabs, Christians & Muslims, with Zionist tendencies. The Islamic Slavs have a horrific history to what they did against their very own Christian Slavs. There is no justification for this evil or vice verse. No true Church will encourage such evil. Abdur believes in making unfounded claims and lies to advance his Islamic version of his unworthy cause. Abdur is easily mislead by the Evil One because he is not in Christ and within the true Church. True Christianity is what Abdur wants us to believe. Abdur has indirectly proclaimed himself a bishop. Where do you think he gets this nonsense? Hint: In the arabic they refer to Muhammed as Sayidna. Sayidna is the title of a bishop. Every Muslim thinks he or she is some brilliant gnostic scholar that has us Christians figured out. They know how to recite from memory the heresies about Christ and that our Holy Scriptures are corrupted but then again some claim that Muhammed is predicted in them. "Sayidna" Abdur is a pontiff who loves pontificating his distorted knowledge about the true Christain Faith which he knows very little about. He has some knowledge of atrocities committed in the name of religion to which he ascribes to true Christianity.

Abdur seek the Light not your distorted agenda of what you think is right. Islam is not right but a historical error without a responsible hiearchy unlike true Christianity.

So Islam says the Bible is corrupt. Ok I have had enough of that garbage. Abdur we have pieces of the Bible dating back to the 1st Century and they match the Bible of Today. Dont believe me?

Go here and see for yourself:
http://alf.zfn.uni-bremen.de/~wie/Egerton/egerton-pictures.html

You are correct about the evils of Islam, just as I am correct about the evils of Christianity.

There must be a better pathway to God that a seeker can find and embrace.

It is clear from the historical record that neither Christianity or Islam can lead the human race in its quest to find peace, love, and integrity, in this world or the world to come. Eventually, the human race with evolve to the point where it will see both Christianity and Islam for what they truly are, and will reject both. Then the pathway to God will be cleansed of the violence and hatred which comprises the foundation of both religions.

One day, all good and decent people will recognize that the greatest and most pleasing service one can offer to the God of Love and Tolerance will be joining in the holy war to bring about the demise and end of these two violent and blood-drenched gods of war known as Christianity and Islam.

May that day come soon.

God shall prevail over all evil doers---including the twin-brother butchers, Christ and Muhammed.

Whoa, Nelly...

God shall prevail over...Christ?

"How can Satan cast out Satan?"

:p

You know that Satan is a liar, so Christ (a/k/a Satan) was lying because he knew you would be easy to deceive.

Islam was spread by the sword, and I have problems with some of the Character traits of Muhhamed. And do not mean to say that he was evil. But I do reject him coming in the the name of Christ (God. And let that also extend to the humanity of Christ - so those that think of Christ as the prophet).

It is however true to say as Abdur does, that christianity was spread by the sword. Christianity followed the Roman legions and it also stood safely behind the monastic knights and forwarded it's advance as the monk knights forward their advance. This spread in the Western frontiers of the quite savage illiterate tribes of Europe can be compared in many ways to the way the Church followed the Europeans into the "New World" as for instance the Cross following behind the sharp edge of the Spanish toledo. Now as for Europe this turned out well because all though blood was shed, it ultimately advanced the human course in away in which ultimately less blood was shed. I say that tribalisim causes far more blood shed and leaves the travel of humans far less safe then nationalism (which is just like a bigger version of tribalism) and that the greatest phase of humanity is to be seen yet - that being one world government. But for this to happen wars will be fought because there will be some nations that will rail against this expansion. And I assure you the Cross of Rome will follow behind this new expansion. So I guess you could say in the new era to come the Cross will folow behind the M-16 and AK47. And I say what'a era!!

All war is not bad war. Sometimes someone must bleed.

...goodnight!

Christ is in our Midst!

Your description of Islam seems to be getting worse by the post. Referring to Christ and your Muhammed as "twin-brother butchers, Christ and Muhammed! You have lost your mind and my respect. There are no evils in true Christianity as in Islam. There are evils committed in the name of Christianity(i.e. Western Crusades). Orthodox Christianity has at least a true apostolic hiearchy. True Christianity and Islam are not on par when it comes to speaking and doing evil. Your Islam and that of many others seeks to put True Christianity on your level. The problem is that you seek false Christianities
to be on par with Islamic atrocities recorded in history so that you don't feel left alone. How many times do I have to refer to the teachings of Christ and that of his True Church? False Christianities are on par with Islam. This is what you are arguing about not true Christianity. As I said before, I would like to know from you which of the ancient Orthodox Patriarchates sanctioned killings and believed in "Just Wars"? Rome does not count.
Last but not least, the true image of Christ is the ultimate way to God our Father. The image of Christ has been revealed in distortions by heretics and heterodoxes. I urge you to seek the true image of Chirst. You will need to know how to separate the sheeps from the wolves.

Matthew
7:15 �Watch out for false prophets, who come to you in sheep�s clothing but inwardly are voracious wolves.19 7:16 You will recognize them by their fruit. Grapes are not gathered20 from thorns or figs from thistles, are they?21 7:17 In the same way, every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad22 tree bears bad fruit. 7:18 A good tree is not able to bear bad fruit, nor a bad tree to bear good fruit. 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 7:20 So then, you will recognize them by their fruit.

Acts
20:28 Watch out for106 yourselves and for all the flock of which107 the Holy Spirit has made you overseers,108 to shepherd the church of God that he obtained109 with the blood of his own Son.110 20:29 I know that after I am gone111 fierce wolves112 will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 20:30 Even from among your own group113 men114 will arise, teaching perversions of the truth115 to draw the disciples away after them. 20:31 Therefore be alert,116 remembering that night and day for three years I did not stop warning117 each one of you with tears. 20:32 And now I entrust118 you to God and to the message119 of his grace. This message120 is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

Dear, in Christ,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I grow weary of threads that pass the 100 mark, and also of threads that go to five pages. For that reason alone, may I suggest that this thread be closed.

I believe we have crossed a line here in this thread, where in the Byzantine Catholic Forum, we choose always to speak respectfully and correctly of everyones faith.

After a glance at the last few posts, all will clearly see that this rule has been broken. As sad as I am to see the holy name of Christ used without reverence, I will not see the name of any other religious leader profaned. Not because leaders or founders of other religions are mine, but because I extend to them the same courtesy I would hope they would extend to me, and God.

May I respectfully suggest that we have utterly exhausted everything that can be said about the relations of the Christian Church with the world of Islam? The fact that the discussion has degenerated into name calling is evidence that we have nothing good to say. My mother always said; if there is nothing good to say, say nothing.

There are other forums and discussion groups which can be found by a simple search, in which this topic is treated. May I refer everyone there.

In those other places, forum moderators and participants are more knowlegable in the field, and the discussions are more directed. For these reasons I suggest that there is no need to open a "volume three" on this topic here at the Byzantine Catholic Forum. Enough has been said here.

Thank you very much,

Elias, monk

moderator, East and West