www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Two lungs but how to breathe?

Dear Zenovia,

Yes, excellent points.

In fact, on the isle of Rhodes there is a local Orthodox cult in honour of a crusader, martyred by the Turks, one "Saint John."

Nothing further is known of him - except that he was a Latin Catholic.

His cult is unknown, however, in the Roman Catholic West.

Alex

Dear Peter,

As far as I know, the RC Church of Greece is the only one that has approval to use the original Creed.

I have known university RC chaplains who celebrated Mass with the original Creed as well - but theirs was a controlled audience!

Alex

To All,

Excuse me if I'm wrong, I don't feel like looking it up, but isn't the creed sans filioque inscribed in St. Peter's Basilica?

Bill

In a council held in Aachen in 809, the Frankish bishops
upheld the FILIOQUE. Pope Leo III (795-816) intervened, and forbade
any interpolations or alterations in the Nicene Creed. He ordered
the Creed, without the FILIOQUE, to be engraved in Latin and Greek
on two silver plates on the wall of St. Peter's in Rome. By doing
so, he avoided a direct confrontation with the East. However, the
FILIOQUE continued to gain ground in the West.

In His Holy Name,
+Fr. Gregory

Bill, yes, the tablets with the Creed were inscribed first in Greek and then in Latin, both sans Filioque.

I think they were first installed in the Lateran and then later in St. Peter's, but I could be wrong about that.

Dear Friends,

So why is Rome so intransigent over this matter?

What's the matter with it?

Alex

Alex, people have been asking these questions for hundreds of years.

His Eminence Angelo Cardinal Sodano
Palazzo Apostolico Vaticano
Citta del Vaticano 00120

Ask 'em

Gee, I dunno, maybe because they've repeatedly issued perfectly reasonable theological explanations for why they believe the Filioque is correct and doesn't need to be removed, yet people keep asking why they don't remove it.

Dear Dolly,

But if Rome itself agrees, in principle, that the Filioque doesn't belong in the Creed, what is the further problem?

I will take Myles' advice and write to Rome to ask that gentleman . . .

Alex

News Flash!

We are actively organizing a grassroots movement consisting of committed individuals who have vowed to neither eat nor sleep until this whole filioque issue has been resolved. Imagine the impact of these countless hungry, tired and irritable people! Extreme measures may also involve - gasp - a prolonged holding of one's breath. We will be heard! This movement follows the (sadly) short-lived "stand on one foot until the primacy of the pope issue is completely resolved" vigil. Some individuals - (EXTREMELY UNBALANCED I hasten to mention) have opted to actually pray daily - mentioning by name all the key spiritual leaders (pope, patriarchs, etc) - West and East. These same "radicals" have resorted to - ha! - reading about the way the undivided church operated in the Scriptures and church fathers. They take "field trips" to other rites and even work together in programs for the poor, etc. They are often seen dialoging on the Byzantine Forum�

(Pardon my spurt of silliness!)

Woody

Alex, perhaps you would consider membership in our A(nti) P(ew) A(nti) F(ilioque) A(ddition) pro T(eoplota)ic society?

Not quite "Apaphatic" but it was the best me and my seminary mate (and still the only two members) could do at 2 a.m. studying for our final Liturgical Theology oral exam...

Well, I think they agree in principle that it doesn't HAVE TO be in the Creed - not that it doesn't belong there at all. After all, tons (in weight as well as years ) of previous Popes have affirmed its theological correctness.

Also, remember that during the past 40+ years there have been some MAJOR changes in the Latin Rite. Even though many of those changes were good, even necessary, they were too often pushed through quickly, even uncharitably.

Maybe Rome has decided that it would be a good idea to say "ixnay" on the "anges-chay", at least for a few more centuries.

Dear Alex,

On my mother's island of Chios, the most revered saint is Saint Markella. Now the story goes, that she was chased by her father, (maybe incest), and she asked that the rock, (it's a volcanic area), open up and engulf her.

The rock did, and her father cut off her head.

Now a Genovese ship was passing, and seeing the head glowing in the water, realized that there was a certain sanctity about it. They took it to Rome and claimed that since her name was Marcella, she had to be Roman Catholic.

People make pilgramages to the area, and when a priest starts reading, the waters in a spring close by begin to bubble.

Now as far as the 'Filioque' goes, Saint Gregoy Palamas wrote the following:

It is impossible for us to participate in the knowledge of God's essence, but we can know and acquire experience of His energies. Likewise the Holy Spirit as essence proceeds from the Father alone, but as energy He is sent by the Son and also from the Son. The existence of the Holy Spirit, His manner of being, is one thing, and His disclosure is another. From: Saint Gregory Palamas as a Hagiorite.

To the Orthodox, it is not the innovations that the West has made, but rather the arrogance of having 'made' those innovations.

Now to understand this, imagine being engulfed in a purely Orthodox world, and perceiving the Church in the West as being merely a branch. They have no concept of what problems might be occuring in the West and what heresies the West might be fighting. To them, all they can see is an usurper, that has taken it upon himself to make innovations...and that is bound to lead to heresy.

The funny thing is that whenever the West declares as dogma something that was accepted in the East, (such as the Assumption of the Theotokos), the Orthodox immediately begin to refute the doctrine.

Strange!

Zenovia

Dear Alex,

Fill us in if that gentleman gives you a reply.

Bill