www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Scripture and Patristic Writings Rom. 9: 11-21

Denise - I dunno!

But you are right.

I used to have an issue with the Corpus on the Cross - when I served in Church and saw a Crucifix with Christ on it, it used to upset me so much I could never eat lunch afterwards.

And having food in the church basement? I just couldn't do it, so filled I was with sorrow at the thought of Christ on the Cross.

But I learned to accept it as a memorial of Christ's Death and Sacrifice for us.

Christ does not now suffer, of course. But we preach and live in "Christ Crucified" as St Paul says.

Alex

Dear Odo and Friends,

I'm familiar with several of these debates and had a very different impression of some of them, for sure. I think Fr. Pacwa had the superior arguements and answers over James White. I found him much more reasonable. The debate with Tim Staples I thought was rather a tie. I think Tim almost blew it by clinging to a concept of Papal Primacay he didn't really need to prove. As far as Scott Hahn goes, I've only seen him do one debate. But the debate I have been most impressed with is that of the one James Akin did with James White. Akin single handedly, on the "Bible-Answer Man" program, held both White and "The Bible Answer Man" at bay. I had no idea Akin had such knowledge of the historic Christian faith and he displayed it with such clarity and charity. I encourage all to check-out that one before they get too impressed with James White.

In Christ's Light,

Der-Ghazarian

it doesn't really matter "who won", the fact is James White is very convincing. Gerry Matatics, it has been stated, admitts to losing 11 out of 12 debates on the Mary Dogmas of Rome. I mentioned Dr. Whites name so that maybe we could come up with arguments in defense of our faith...it's that simple.

Dear Odo,

I agree it doesn't matter who wins a debate. I was rather focusing on your comment that Mr. White was "unstoppable" as if no one can answer his arguments. Coming from his theological background, I find many of his beliefs very refuttable and very much out of sink with the historic Christian faith. Many of his claims, I think -and I think many Catholic apologists have demonstrated-, don't have a leg to stand on. So I just don't have the same kind of awe for his so-called "ministry" as you have indicated.

Now, as for your main question. Do you have the tree part series, "Faith of the Early Church Fathers" by Jurgens? Just browsing through it, I think I've seen several excellent examples of refutation of the doctrine of "predestinationism." If you don't have it, when I get some more time I'll try to post some of them. By the way, I think there is a difference that is made by Catholic theologians between "predestination" which they accept and "predestinationism" which is what Calvin taught. The former refers to God's knowledge of our eternal destiny before we are even conceived. The latter refers to our lack of human freedom to choose God or not. This is latter doctrine is what is condemned.

In Christ's Light,

Der-Ghazarian

James Akin is awesome! I encourage all of you to read his article on Calvinist thought called "A Tiptoe through TULIP" (referring to the TULIP acrostic that Calvinists use: Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, Perseverance of the Saints).

I have a Presbyterian background and am still technically Presbyterian, although I haven't been to the church where I am a member in a long time. Our pastor, who I have great respect for despite having differences with him about theology, teaches that Calvinists believe in Free Will--they just believe every freely chooses to not follow God. IOW, everyone's answer to God's offer of salvation is "No." That's when Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, and Irrisistible Grace come in. God, for His glory, chooses whom He wills to save. So, God wills (wants) everyone to be saved. But they all freely reject Him. So, He chooses to save those who will bring Him glory by electing them and drawing them irrisistibly to Him.

I had a really tough time letting go of this theology. I had some very intelligent teachers at our Presbyterian church and Calvinism seemed perfectly biblical. James Akin's article really helped me to understand the Catholic Church's teaching, and now I believe the Church's teaching to be the biblical teaching.

Here's the URL to the article:

http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/tulip.htm

God Bless,

Jenny

Dear Jenny,

How interesting!

Calvinism is, of course, based on extreme Augustinianism and the idea that we inherit not only Adam's fallen state, but also the "stain" of his sin as well.

The Eastern Fathers always affirmed that free will, to be truly free, is based on God's Grace that is not totally absent from us from our very beginning.

We do not choose to reject Him, inasmuch as we are born with a human nature that is mortal and in a state of rebellion against God i.e. sinfulness.

We certainly do have the free will to choose or reject God. But then Calvinism throws in the monkey-wrench and says that we have all rejected God. That was not done by a conscious decision from our beginning as "all have sinned in Adam" or we inherited our sinfulness and tendency to sin from him.

In short, if we have free will, we have it as a result of God's Grace. To say that all those who have God's Grace have rejected Him is to denigrate the role of that Grace in our lives.

The total depravity view excludes the possibility of our having grace.

Therefore, if that is true, we have no true free will to begin with.

Alex

Dear Friends,

Thanks goes to Jenny for the enlightening article and her moving, brief testimony.
I think it is interesting that practically speaking the Reformed Protestants deny man's free will before man becomes Christian and the "Free Will / Arminian" type Protestants deny man's Free Will after he becomes a Christian.
I believe historic, Apostolic Chirstianity affirms man's free will before and after becoming Christian. I think the truth is that we have the ability to accept or reject God until the day we die.

Trusting in Christ's Light,

Der-Ghazarian

p.s. Jenny, did you receive the second e-mail from my wife? She sent it a while ago but then we found it in a draft folder and began to wonder if we ever sent it at all???

That makes sense. Now that I look back, I can't believe that I didn't see the flaws in Calvinism as the Presbyterians see it. Of course, at that point, I hadn't had any exposure to the Catholic view (Roman or Eastern).

I do wonder how the Eastern Catholic Church reconciles the Eastern Christian/Orthodox view of original sin with the Roman Catholic view. They do seem completely opposite. But I guess that's a topic for another thread.

God Bless,

Jenny

Dear Friends,

Thanks goes to Jenny for the enlightening article and her moving, brief testimony.

You're welcome. I'm glad it was helpful.

p.s. Jenny, did you receive the second e-mail from my wife? She sent it a while ago but then we found it in a draft folder and began to wonder if we ever sent it at all???

Oh, you did! I'm so sorry! I totally forgot to write her back! I'm going to write her right now.

God Bless,

Jenny