www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Scripture and Patristic Writings Saint Gregory of Sinai - Living Christ's Life Progressively

Eli:

It seems to me that "UNLESS WE WILL TO BE CORRUPTED..." comes at the point where I throw in the towel and give up the fight. I give up on
Christ and "go along to get along."

Just as the Desert Fathers tell us that of all the works of the spirit that prayer remains a great struggle to our last breath, THE CHRISTIAN LIFE IS A CONSTANT STRUGGLE TO OUR LAST BREATH. But remembering what the Lord has said about those who persevere to the end we continue.

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me the struggle has intensified with each passing day and each passing year. I am tempted to compromise, challenged to defend (gently) the truths of the Faith that I have learned, nurtured, and made part to who I am. I seem to have more and more people tell me I'm crazy for believing what the Church teaches, that I am wasting my time with prayer and ascetic effort (because we "don't have to do it"). Like the old man in the Old Testament who said that he would not even pretend to violate God's law by eating pork and thus to be a scandal to the young, I've been challenged time and again to admit that the Church's teaching is outdated and not "with the times." Remembering St. Paul's admonition to "save yourself from this wicked generation" I struggle.

My father once told me that a man is successful in this life if he can look his Creator in the eye at his personal judgment and say, "I have not compromised Your Teaching." You know, the older I get, the more profound my father's words seem to me.

In Christ,

BOB

Eli:

It seems to me from my own study and prayer in trying to understand this area that we first have to look at sin itself.

I use the word "sin" as an acronym: "separation or selfishness or self-centeredness is normal or necessary or nice." Choose your own combination, the result is the same: God is other-directed in Trinity; we are called to be the same. The selfish one is the one who thinks of himself first and this stems from his inner motivation.

I hestiate to step into the involuntary area, but will do so in hopes that some of our clergy will jump in and give us the correction needed if I stray.

It seems to me that involuntary sin can come from doing a good thing with a bad motivation, sometimes something we may not even be aware of since we all have a tendency to hide things even from ourselves. When we look deep inside ourselves we can find some nasty stuff that we are very often not even aware of. And it seems to me that this nasty stuff can pollute our best intentions often without us even knowing it. So my less-than-educated guess is that the Eastern Fathers, being masters of the spiritual life, having delved deeply into the human condition, and most importantly being guided by the Holy Spirit have come upon this area of involuntary sin because it covers areas of which we may not be aware that still offend Our Lord deeply. I also believe that involuntary sin can be that which comes from the area of prelest: when we think we've got it all together and even allow that thought to be entertained. As one western writer put it--can't put my fingers on the quote right now but something to the effect--when we think we have made progress in the spiritual life it is precisely at that point we may be sure we have not even begun. Another example might be when I make a contribution to the poor and congratulate myself on what a good guy I am--forgetting that St. Basil tells us that our surplus is the voluntary storehouse of the poor. My motivation is not as crystal clear as I might think: I may be deluded that the goods with which I have been entrusted as steward are mine when in reality they belong to the Lord when I am incorporated into Him by Baptism. And my own thought of generosity may offend Him Who blessed the widow's mite rather than the tithes of the wealthy.

Father Anthony?

In Christ,

BOB

Eli:

Please accept my deepest apology for ruining your past post. I thought I hit the button for a pm and ended up deleting your post.

Would you be kind enough to repost?

That's what I get for trying to write when I'm tired. :rolleyes:

BOB

Don't give it a second thought. It just seemed to me that it might prove fruitful to explore the theology of involuntary sin for a bit.

Be of good cheer.

Eli

Just a quick thought before I sign off for the evening, Bob.

Intentionality inherently results in a voluntary act.

So I was just wondering here what you mean by "motivation"?

Eli

Eli:

Would a change of word to "intention" be better?

I'd have to think about an example, but I think it would involve some deeper examination of conscience than we are sometimes able to do. The Lord, however, in the words of an Orthodox prayer "searches the reins and the heart and clearly discerns the most hidden things of men."

BOB

PS: You now understand that you're dealing with a man who is "technoligically challenged." :rolleyes: My computer learning curve is so flat that it skims the ground.

Eli:

Spent some time thinking and praying about voluntary and involuntary sin. Is it an overlap with committing sin "knowingly or unknowingly"? Something like conscious or unconscious related to what I think my intention is and what the deep down intention is that I may or may not be aware of?

BOB

Those four, shall we say, modes of sinning are related but not equivalent pairs. Intent is yet something else again.

I don't have my eyes with me here at the computer and I've spent up all my time for now reading liturgy discussions. So if you'll bear with me I'll pick up on this tomorrow some time. It's a nice topic to mull around in any discussion of "progress" on the path toward holiness. You're right on top of it of course but I'll add an idea or two of my own when I have more time and can see more clearly!!

I also hope to heaven that you've giving up on flogging yourself for ruthlessly dumping my brilliant words yesterday !!

I do not mind in the least. Errors like that happen to the worst of us all the time, ask me, so why not also to the best?

Eli

Eli:

No, am not beating myself up. It's the humbling experience of being both tired at that time and looking through the wrong lens of my trifocals.

It's no sin to get old; just inconvenient as it can be!

You know the definition of "old," don't you? "What doesn't hurt, doesn't work!!

BOB

Eli:

Back to "involuntary" . . .

Am I on the right track if I pose the following example?

Do I sin in an "involuntary" fashion when I do something that is against my conscience but I don't have the "guts" to stand up for what I believe, rather caving to social, cultural, family or some other external pressure?

BOB

No. Not really. That would be a quite voluntary choice. I am writing something at the moment to post either tomorrow or the next day.

It is a complex concept in some ways so that trying to condense a brief teaching is more difficult that writing a long treatise. But spiritually the wisdom from it is quite succinct, so I will try to capture both to the best of my ability in a short time. At least enough to demonstrate the various elements of its theology and to offer some examples and where it fits along the way of perfection.

The concept of involuntary sin is called, in Hebrew, Sheggagah. The old testament is full of examples of it and it appears again in Paul's letters and is strongly tied with Paul's seemingly contradictory teachings on justification, on our duty to the law and our freedom from the law. The theology of involuntary sin touches deeply into our understanding of divine providence, covenant, propitiation and justification.

It is not an easy concept to grasp fully all at once, and no one example will cover it all.

So I'll do the best I can in the next day or so to write a brief something suitable to this format, and something that might be useful to the spiritual life which is what we were talking about when I raised the question.

I don't know if I will post it here or following my posting of the paragraph from Diadochos of Photiki. Might be better to put it over under its own heading.

Eli

Eli:

Thanks for the return psot. This will be a good place to expand my learning about something I hve mentioned in several prayers over the years but had little understanding of. But, then, there are still many things I don't fully understand.

In Christ,

BOB

Are you aware that what you have just decribed fits exactly with changes to our subconcious mind? (to use more modern terms). This is Paul's 'Law of the members'.

-ray

Of course I do I am a Carmelite by formation. And a born lunatic by nature.

I suffered the slings and arrows of secular therapy and the thorns and dry grit of walking the Way of Perfection, and it was by the way of perfection that I was heald. More or less- :p

Eli