www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Scripture and Patristic Writings End Times and Revelations

I realize from the outset of this post that what I will say - will be disagreed with by 98% on this board (or moreJ ). So, in saying that, I am not addressing anyone in particular - I am addressing a subject and a very common and popular view - I start off this discussion - but I may not necessarily - argue this discussion.

(Fasten my flack jacket).

First - millenarism (the return of Jesus Christ in the flesh into history - which time is preceded or followed by certain predicted geopolitical events) had been soundly condemned by the Church both before the East/West schism and was again condemned by the RC in 1944.

But it seems to me to be bigger than ever as the common interpretation of the Book of Revelations.

The church, properly, does not really define Christ�s �coming again� much beyond some scriptural quotes, and, while calling it a �Second Coming� is in common use (mostly outside the Catholic church but sometimes used inside as well) it is not proper to used that term in the sense of �another coming of Jesus into history� in anyway similar to the �first�. A second �coming� would imply that there is yet a further revelation of Jesus Christ to come - and the Church has believed that his coming at the crucifixion and resurrection - was a full and complete revelation and there is no further revelation to come AND prophecy and revelation were closed with the death of the last apostle (who could personally tell us about the experience of His humanity).

The speculation of a physical return of Christ to begin a 1000 year temporal rein - belongs mostly to cults - but also became popular in main stream Protestant circles during the Reformation (better understood as the Middle Ages political schism from Rome). The major form of Christianity that has formed American culture is - Protestant - and that has heavily influenced both the Catholic and Orthodox population of the US.

(links to many cults who espouse milleniarism)
http://www.mille.org/scholarship/bibliography/bibliosubjects/616.html
During the change of the last millenium - hysteria swept Germany.
http://www.mille.org/publications/Confpro98/warneken.PDF

Older than Chritian millenarism is Jewish millenarism.

Jewish millenarism - indeed - was a contributing human factor to the crucifixion of Christ himself - in as much as many Jews expected the messiah to establish an earthly kingdom and rein - Judas sought to spark the revolt which would sweep Jesus into geopolitical power - and Annas and Herod sought to kill Jesus so he would not be brought to the throne through a popular revolt.

Significantly, Jesus himself never considered his own �coming� to be a �first� entailing a second. He considered his one and only �coming� of the Son of Man to be the specific event of his crucifixion and resurrection.

It seems that what �comes again� is the - first - one - and only - �coming� � in the same way that the Eucharist is not another sacrifice - but the same - one - and only sacrifice - re-presented. In other words the first and only crucifixion and resurrection (coming of the Son of Man) does not take place again - but is re-present (through mystery) again. The external �parts time� - enters into time - and makes �time� null and void (if you will).

In prophetic images - the words �coming on the clouds of heaven� mean - coming in mystery (clouds=mystery). Both the Orthodox and RC teach in agreement with Paul and John (Epistles) that the �end times� began with the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ. And the word �times� (aeon) mean an in-determined time span (has no beginning and no end). And in both the Hebrew and the Greek the �end of the world� means an end to a governing of the world by fate and destiny as opposed to by Providence - it does not mean and end of creation but an end to a type of government of creation. When the Christian, through spiritual growth and grace, comes to the realization that Providence alone brings all things and events into be-ing - then - the world of Godless fate and destiny - ends. When anyone accepts Christ and Christ begins to live within him - the �end times� have begun.

The concept of spiritual growth - personal sanctification - and that Christianity centers on a progress toward a mystical union - begun here in this life - has mostly been replaced by a concept that there are only a few people God selects to be saints (while yet here) and most of us have to �hope� and maintain faith - that when we die - Jesus will have mercy on us and allow us into heaven. This concept seems to make of Christianity a waiting game, rather than a time of spiritual work, a waiting period where one has to wait for the judgment AFTER death to find out if he goes to heaven or not. The results of the spiritual life are not near - but far off. Where �faith and hope� become regulated to having faith and hope that through the mercy of Jesus we will be assigned heaven because we endured the wait without losing faith and hope in his mercy.

Mostly gone from Christianity - is the doctrine of daily Providence. Mostly gone from Christianity is actually experiencing Christ in any real and living way (replaced by dedication to holding onto the faith and hope that Jesus is there while not actually experiencing him). Mostly gone from Christianity is the goal of spiritual growth, cooperation with Providence, and the goal of mystical marriage. Never mind all that.

----Milleniarism has never been far from the church------
�What is clear in Dionysius, however, is his opposition to millenarianism arianism, a belief in a temporal and material final rule of Christ. It appears that such beliefs, at least at that time, were based upon a certain reading of the Apocalypse.�

�Eusebius also had certain difficulties, and again they appear to have arisen from his struggle against Millenarianism. He was deeply involved in this question, as it also infringed upon his political positions. Millenarianism, with its waiting for the final rule of Christ, tended to detract from the Christian empire of Constantine, rendering it also a part of the old order, a part of the wicked and passing era, destined to be totally destroyed.�

�Before Dionysius and Eusebius millenarianist beliefs were not shared by everyone. Yet the Apocalypse was widely known and used. In fact, some of the most serious opponents of millenarianism use it and comment upon it: Theophilus of Antioch, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, the various acts of the martyrs, and especially the Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity. This indicates, at least, that there was a current interpretation of the Apocalypse (which would have included ch. 20) which was not millenarianist.�

�It is not merely a question of what the Apocalypse said then, but a question of whether or not the Apocalypse is directly responsible for the many forms of millenarianism which still exist in Christianity to this day, many of them irrational, and some even leading to violence.�

(Professor Euginio Corsini, University of Turin)
http://www.thegenesisletters.com/PrivateLibrary/Corsini/Corsini.htm
-----------------------

The concept of prophecy, as referred to in the quote �Do not despise prophecy... � has, in context, nothing to do with predictions of the future beyond Christ and the event of the crucifixion and resurrection. The prophesies not to despise (as regards predicting events surrounding an appearance of Christ) are (in context of this line) of the Old Testament - for that is the one and only purpose of predictive prophecy and the appearance of Christ already took place. In this way the fathers and the church declared prophecy as being - closed.

The meaning of prophecy as a predictive use was secondary to the early Church�s understanding of prophecy (its role and �office'). The main meaning of prophecy and the prophet is the understanding of the �deep things� of God and it is very close to the Eastern concept that a theologian is someone who is enlighten by God to understand the deep things of God.

As regards the Book of Apocalypse (originally called the book of �the restoration-of-all-things�) without good grounding in Hebrew traditions one is lost and is interpreting �ink blots�.

The book is a history of mankind from the fall to the restoration in Christ (his appearance, crucifixion and resurrection) told in the images and symbols of the Old Testament. It was written by a Jew (John) for Jews - to prove that Jesus was the messiah and fulfilled all prophecies (especially the coming of the Son of Man as portrayed in Daniel and Zechariahs). One who was very familiar with Jewish history and the ceremonies of the Temple (the directly intended reader) would see right away its imagery and meaning.

Example - the symbol of 'Babylon' need not be 'Rome of the Vatican, the Pope, or anything not yet humanly known by John or the inteded reader (current Jews) - in fact - 'Babylon' most likely means - Babylon! and its place in the history of the Jewish people. It is the 'spirit' of Babylon which made Babylon - Babylon.

The form and structure of the book are specifically Jewish (and let us not forget that these early Christians did not consider themselves a separate church but rather considered themselves as real Jews with the mission to return the religion of Moses to its true roots).

The book opens with a vision of Jesus, dressed in the robes of an officiating High Priest (on the day of atonement) standing inside the Holy of Holies ready to pour out (on the ground and on the Ark) the bowel which contains the blood of the sacrificial lamb. John makes it clear (if you knew the Temple cerimony) that what he is seeing is what already took place when the veil of the Holy of Holies was ripped in two during the crucifixion (allowing one to see inside). In this, John 'bends' time. Then, the vision is repeated by dividing it into four major events...

Letters, Seals, Trumpets, Bowels

which each section is to be understood as repeating that same opening vision but in four different views (under varied old testament images).

1) Letters (Old Testament prophesies not understood fully in their time)
2) Seals (being broken meaning that the prophecies can now be understood)
3) Trumpets (announcing the imminent presence of the King)
4) Bowels or braziers of brass which caught the lambs blood during the sacrifice on the Day of Atonement and which the selected High Priest brought inside the curtain of the Holy of Holies to spill on the ground and sprinkle upon the Ark.

The New Jerusalem coming down from the clouds of haven (�the next time you see me I will be at the right hand of God coming on the clouds of heaven ��) - IS - the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Which resurrection splits time and makes time null and void.

According to early church theology the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ was (is) the specific event of the judgment of the world that took place within the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ - and that event is the event by which - and within which - we all shall be judged.

How is this specifically applied to us? Unique to the book is that it not only outlines the historical events of creation from Adam - through Israel - to the appearance of Christ and his revelation (within the event of the crucifixion and resurrection) as the promised Son of Man - but at the same time it also outlines (parallels) what the early fathers of the church believed of the personal progress of the spiritual and mystical life of the individual soul - up to the event of the individual�s Mystical Marriage.

And the last subject (nobody will read this - it is far too long already) is certain circles of �Catholic� prophecies. Having been close friends with a priest who has spent almost all his life being very involved with many mystics and very knowledgeable about this stuff� I will pass along these small points�

A. The vision or such - may or may not be genuine (there are ways to tell which are generally unknown to the mystic and no good spiritual directory will speak about publicly).
B. The seers - may or may not understand the meaning of his own vision. Most of the time, they do not (and that in itself points toward some genuiness).
C. There is a great tendency (also with any priest directing the soul) to physical-ize the meaning of the vision. That is - to interpret it in material ways and not see the symbolic meaning.
D. Visions and such which predict geopolitical events - missions - and messages for the public - are very suspect to either be dis-genuine or an indication the mystic has gone 'bad'.
E. The supernatural (God�s doing) is rare and most �events� are preternatural (the operation of the individual�s own spiritual faculties).
F. The quickest way to ruin any mystic - is to make it public - and sell a book.
G. All genuine visions and such are either personal or refer back to the event of the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ (in some way).
H. A genuine mystic will follow the direction of the authorities of the church (his director priest and his bishop) even if that direction is misguided, mistaken, or wrong. For an obvious example I think it was 7 years that Padre Pio was not allowed to do any priestly functions in public. He could not hear confession etc� and was only allowed to say Mass in his cell - all alone. Obviously mistaken direction by some authority based upon a mistaken or even intentional bad judgment. It mattered not to Padre Pio who considered it the Providential Will of God that it be so.

While private revelation (meaning not a further revelation of Jesus Christ but rather something revealed to an individual soul regarding his own spiritual life) is not dangerous as such - and can be very enlightening - the real danger is with the several public interpretations that often arise - which are out of context and are a sensational materialistic interpretation of the event - plus - the cults these tend to generate.

Any takers?
-ray

Dear Friend in Christ,

I�m not sure why you quoted me at the beginning of your post, what I previously wrote has little to do with �millenarism.�

I really don't expect everyone to read both posts, but I'll post anyway.

This is what I believe...

Orthodox Catechism
With death, the soul is separated from the body. It receives a particular judgement and remains separated until the Second Coming of Christ and the final judgement. At the final judgement, man will be presented before Christ as a full person, with a body and soul. For man to be presented like this, his body must be resurrected and be united with the soul. This will happen immediately before the final judgement. Holy Scripture absolutely assures us of this. Let us see some of its passages.
"The hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgement" (John, 5:28-9).
St. Paul says "Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed" (1 Corinthians, 15:51-52).
St. Paul says elsewhere, "For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thessalonians, 4:14-17).
From the above passages of Holy Scripture we are clearly taught beyond any doubt that:
a) The dead will be resurrected before the Second Coming of Christ and final judgement. "All who are in the tombs shall hear his voice, and come forth" (John, 5:28).
b) The resurrected body will be immortal. "The dead will be raised imperishable" (1 Corinthians, 15:52).
c) Before the Second Coming or during it, the living will be changed; in other words, their bodies, like those of the dead, will be spiritualized and made immortal: "The dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed" (1 Corinthians, 15:52).
d) The living and the dead will proceed to eternal life or eternal hell. "And come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment" (John, 5:29).
With the resurrection of the dead and the final judgement, death is abolished. The end of the world also comes, but this does not mean the catastrophic end to the world but rather change and finality. Sin will disappear.
Thrice-holy God, Who with Your infinite love created and sustain us, You admire and bless us whenever we do good, You tolerate us when we sin, You forgive us when we repent. You deigned that Your only begotten Son should become man, to be crucified, to die as a man, to be resurrected and become the first-born from the dead, and to make possible our own resurrection. We thank You for all these things. We ask You please to give us repentance. Make it so that we will proceed to the resurrection of life and not to judgement. Grant us eternal life. Do not allow our eternal punishment. Do not deprive us of the joy of Your everlasting presence.
_______________________________________________
Roman Catholic Catechism
524. "When the Church celebrates the liturgy of Advent each year, she makes present this ancient expectancy of the Messiah, for by sharing in the long preparation for the Saviour's first COMING, the faithful renew their ardent desire for his SECOND COMING.[Cf Rev 22:17.] By celebrating the precursor's birth and martyrdom, the Church unites herself to his desire : 'He must increase, but I must decrease.'[Jn 3:30 .]"

556. "On the threshold of the public life: the baptism; on the threshold of the Passover: the Transfiguration. Jesus' baptism proclaimed 'the mystery of the first regeneration', namely, our Baptism; the Transfiguration 'is the sacrament of the SECOND regeneration': our own Resurrection.[St. Thomas Aquinas, STh III, 45, 4, ad 2.] From now on we share in the Lord's Resurrection through the Spirit who acts in the sacraments of the Body of Christ. The Transfiguration gives us a foretaste of Christ's glorious COMING, when he 'will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body.'[Phil 3:21 .] But it also recalls that 'it is through many persecutions that we must enter the kingdom of God':[Acts 14:22 .]
Peter did not yet understand this when he wanted to remain with Christ on the mountain. It has been reserved for you, Peter, but for after death. For now, Jesus says: 'Go down to toil on earth, to serve on earth, to be scorned and crucified on earth. Life goes down to be killed; Bread goes down to suffer hunger; the Way goes down to be exhausted on his journey; the Spring goes down to suffer thirst; and you refuse to suffer?'[St. Augustine, Sermo 78, 6: PL 38, 492-493; cf. Lk 9:33 .]"

675. "Before Christ's SECOND COMING the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.[Cf. Lk 18:8 ; Mt 24:12 .] The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth[Cf. Lk 21:12 ; Jn 15:19-20 .] will unveil the 'mystery of iniquity' in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.[Cf. 2 Th 2:4-12 ; 1 Th 5:2-3 ; 2Jn 7 ; 1Jn 2:1 8, 22 .]"

1021. "Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.[Cf. 2 Tim 1:9-10 .] The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his SECOND COMING, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul-a destiny which can be different for some and for others.[Cf. Lk 16:22 ; Lk 23:43 ; Mt 16:26 ; 2 Cor 5:8 ; Phil 1:23 ; Heb 9:27 ; Heb 12:23 .] "

In Christ,
Gideon

http://www.ziplink.net/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/kerygma/a.pl

Perhaps you should challenge Tim LaHaye to a debate?

One thing, however; you said:

"The concept of spiritual growth - personal sanctification - and that Christianity centers on a progress toward a mystical union - begun here in this life - has mostly been replaced by a concept that there are only a few people God selects to be saints (while yet here) and most of us have to �hope� and maintain faith - that when we die - Jesus will have mercy on us and allow us into heaven. This concept seems to make of Christianity a waiting game, rather than a time of spiritual work, a waiting period where one has to wait for the judgment AFTER death to find out if he goes to heaven or not. The results of the spiritual life are not near - but far off. Where �faith and hope� become regulated to having faith and hope that through the mercy of Jesus we will be assigned heaven because we endured the wait without losing faith and hope in his mercy.

"Mostly gone from Christianity - is the doctrine of daily Providence. Mostly gone from Christianity is actually experiencing Christ in any real and living way (replaced by dedication to holding onto the faith and hope that Jesus is there while not actually experiencing him). Mostly gone from Christianity is the goal of spiritual growth, cooperation with Providence, and the goal of mystical marriage. Never mind all that."

Of what Christianity do you speak? I don't agree that this sense is either (a) new to this age or (b) as widespread as you seem to think.

In Christ,
Theophilos

It was just a jumping off point. I removed you quote. I am interested in your opinion and anyone elses opinion on the subject of "End times" and "Second Coming" - that is all.

It was just a jumping off point. I removed you quote. I am interested in your opinion and anyone elses opinion on the subject of "End times" and "Second Coming" - that is all. [/QUOTE]

It would take too much space�how about you ask a question on a certain topic such as the two witnesses of Revelations or the seven-year reign of antichrist, etc? I will say that I tend to use a more literal interpretation of end time eschatology compared to Latin Catholic thought. I have posted the title of this book before �Ultimate Things� by D. Engleman. I find it very believable.

http://www.stvladimirs.ca/library/commentary-apocalypse.html

http://goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8079.asp

http://goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8081.asp

I don't know who he is.

I don't think it is new to our age either but I do think that, during the early Middle Ages of Europe people lived in almost a 'competition' of personal spiritual progress (I am talking about the age in which the Roman Catholic church experienced a great number of saints throughout Europe). At that time, not only the future saint but the common person had as part of his daily conversation such comments as �If the Good Lord is willing I shall travel to so-and-so today.� and their letters and such were sprinkled with a daily acknowledgement and recognition of God�s personal actions in day to day life via Providence. The early American colonists were the same way in as much as even their personal letters, more than not, contained comments reflecting their belief of the daily actions of Providence within even the mundane of everyday life.

Yes - I do think that a daily recognition and belief that God guides and brings to us all the events which happed to us daily - for his purpose of making us into his image - has almost disappeared and has been replaced in most Christian minds with a scientific and mechanical view of creation and its daily events - where God is viewed as only occasionally getting involved. I can not remember at all the last time I heard a priest speak on the subject of Providence - can you?

As to how widespread it may be - the time of cultural and social Christendom is passing (Christendom being government incorporating Christian ideals) certainly the legalization of abortion and gay marriage - has marked a drastic change in the general Christian morals of American and Europe. I think one need not look too far to see that the references to God and Providence (�One nation, under God� etc..�) which were so much a normal and natural part of the moral formation of American - are lately being removed.

Both the Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Church recognize the progressive disappearance of Christianity in Europe and the RC has considered it a great concern.

Now be honest - had you - in your own mind - attributed anything that happened to you today as coming from the hand of God?? Has anyone said to you today �God was very good to me today - let me tell you what happened�.�?? What virtue - were you aware of today that some event that happened to you was designed by God to increase that virtue and you thought to yourself �God has sent this trouble to me in order to make me into a saint.�??

That is what I mean.

I do thank you for the opportunity of this discussion.

This thread was interesting, but pretty much over my head. All I can contribute (I know this isn't terribly relevant either) are two links to books about the end times and Revelation that I found especially good and that are available online:

"The Abomination of Desolation" by Hegomen Athanasius Iskander: http://www.stmarycoptorthodox.org/intor-abomination_of_desolation-introduction.htm
(ignore the order form, the whole books online, with links to the 11 chapters bellow)

and "Commentary on the Book of Revelation" by Fr. Tadros Malaty: http://www.saintmark.com/topics/biblestudy/revelation.pdf

The first one goes through what the Bible and the Fathers say about the endtimes, and the second goes through what the Fathers say about the book of Revalation, verse by verse. Abouna Athanasius has one last chapter in his book talking about someone who he says could be the antichrist, but don't let that put you off, he's not saying this person is, he's just saying always be ready, and we hope not, probably not, but maybe.

CopticOrthodox,

Fr. Iskander has been very kind to me and sent me the books you listed as well as a couple other books about the Coptic Church. He is a very knowledgable man and kind to boot. Do you attend St. Marys?

Gideon

Yeah, I used to be a Protestant, and a friend sent me to him with questions when I was very close to entering the Catholic Church. He made hours for me a couple times a month to sit and talk with me for about 6 months, while he was running about 6 churches accross the country, flying every weekend. He baptised me one year ago in about 2 weeks. I was just at his house tonight confessing, it's amazing the way he always makes time for everyone while translating all our liturgical stuff, and writting articles. I've been a chanter (epsaltros) for St. Mary's for about 8 months (which is not a big deal, 1/2 the males are). How do you know Fr. Athanasius? Have you visited us in Kitchener?

I have only contacted him via email. His emails left me with the impression he was a very warm man. I wish I could visit but I live about 3 hours away from Kitchener. Do you know of anyone that may travel from the Chatham area? Car pool perhaps? I would still like to learn more about Coptic Orthodoxy.

(trouble editing again - I must stop using my back button and making dupes!)

(man - I am messing up my editing!)

Gideon�
thank you for engaging me in this discussion.

Oh you will find all types of Roman Catholic thought... from very literal to very symbolic. I do not mind at all your interpretation.

I was greatly impressed with this book by Corsini�
(save it in html if you want to - it is out of print and impossible to obtain).
http://www.thegenesisletters.com/PrivateLibrary/Corsini/Corsini.htm
I obtained permission from the original publishers to make it available in copy - privately.

I am entertaining the thought that - the Second Coming may be like a 'mirror' image of the first coming and the spiritual marriage, and in that sense, I may be having trouble separating the two.

I am intrigued by this�

For the sake of discussion, in these I can see a connection to the visions of the Apocalypse - in as much as the description is very Jewish and both contain the same items�

1) the trumpet to announce the imminante presence of the King.
2) the 'clouds'.
3) the decent of something.

In Paul it is Jesus who descends - and that which descends in the Apocalypse is the New Jerusalem (seeming to be that both are the same one �thing�).

Also present in Paul and the Apocalypse is the item of the �clouds�. Jesus� decent is within �a cloud� and Jesus� himself said �the next time you shall see me is � in the clouds�� and obviously those �who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air� is the same �cloud�. One cannot miss, that to the Jewish mind there is an obvious connection to the descent of the presence of God within the cloud upon Sinai and the dark cloud of presence which went before them by day during the Exodus and God decending into the First Temple within a 'cloud' (cloud and dark smoke share the same root in Hebrew so the interpretation is in the context).

According to the usual prophetic and apocalyptic style of literature the use of the term that is poorly translated into English as the �sky� or �air� means it is a spiritual event (not experienced by the physical senses) and is experienced by the spiritual faculties of the mind. This is in the same way that Hades or hell is pictured (in images) as the under-world or subterranean.

What I wrote above was kindda thinking out loud.

As you well know, these things can be like a hall of mirrors and difficult to sort out. Very �reflective� into each other.

This line here �For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep.� seems to also lend itself to the interpretation that �we who are alive� refers to those who have Christ in them (Christ=life) and that those who do not fall away during persecutions (which certainly took place) but remained in Christ up to the time of their own physical death - will �see� this coming of the Lord, descending as the New Jerusalem within the clouds (mystery) of a spiritual experience. We also see here �shall not precede those who have fallen asleep.� the use of �sleep� as physical death (reminding us of Lazaerth who to us was physically death but to Jesus was - asleep) strengthening the concept there that �life� is being used not as physical life but Christ-life (I am the Life) and death is not physical death but the absence of Christ-life.

So it seems that Paul may be saying here that those current Christians (those who have life) who do not fall away because of persecutions and trial but maintain �life� until their end in physical death - will experience the �second coming� BUT they should not think they will experience the Second Coming - before (shall not precede) those who have already physically died have (or will).

With this type of interpretation I am in total agreement with Corsini and it makes sense out of Paul and John both saying that the �end times� have already begun and the anti-Christ is already present.

From my reading of Paul - it appears that in his earlier Epistles he tends to believe in a Second Coming as a more physical event (and he assumes that will happen before he dies) and in his later Epistles he shifts a bit and comes to the view that it is not such a thing to happen at one moment in human history but more a thing of an event in each persons experience surrounding their own physical death.

I am also reminded of the line (paraphrased here) where Jesus said �some here of this generation will not see death before they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven.� seeming to indicate that some of the Christians physically alive then - would not physically die before they experienced the Second Coming - but would experience it before physical death. Which seems to indicate the fact of the �spiritual marriage� or mystical marriage that has happened to some saints.

Do you have any comments on this speculation?

Forgive me for being so slow, but, do you present your interpretation as an alternative to the idea that He will literally come again as an event in history, or do you mean both, like the way Christ's speach meant both the fall of the Temple in Jerusalem and the end times? If the former, what do you think about how this world will end, since it seems it must have an end? Sorry if you already said and I missed it.

I'll try to hang with you as long as I can but most of your post is over my head.

Mat 16:28 Truly I say to you, There are some standing here who shall not taste of death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.


If you continue to read on futher (the chapters were added latter, right?) in Mat. 17.

Mat 17 And after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, and brought them up into a high mountain apart. And He was transfigured before them. And His face shone as the sun, and His clothing was white as the light. And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah talking with Him. And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here. If You will, let us make here three tabernacles; one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah. While he yet spoke, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them. And behold a voice out of the cloud which said, This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased, hear Him.

I have always understood chapter 17 to be a fulfilling of 16. We now find that Christ has come into his power with God the Father saying �This is My beloved Son��


According to St. Symeon the New Theologian, "it is not about events present and visible, but about future and invisible ones. Hence the need for much prayer, much zeal, much purity of spirit on the part of those who speak and those who hear. This is essential so that the speakers may know well and the hearers may be able to listen intelligently."

The Second Coming of Christ is compared with His coming. When we speak of the First Coming, we mean Christ's becoming man and when we speak of the Second Coming, we mean the coming of Christ to judge men. If Jesus came once in the flesh then why deny His power to return in the flesh?

St. Gregory Palamas presents the difference between these two Comings. He says that at the first Coming the glory of His divinity was hidden beneath the flesh, which he assumed from us and for our salvation. And still now the glory of His divinity is hidden in the Father with His flesh that is identically God. But then at His Second Coming "His whole glory will be revealed". Then there will appear a brightness shining round the ends of the world with the rays of His divinity.

2Th 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the breath of His mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming,


A little incoherent but I tried.

Gideon