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I am speculating somewhat. Let us entertain the idea that it is �both� as you say and perhaps not �one or the other� - but let us look at the very speech you mention.

I believe for sure - that he will not come again as an event into temporal human history. That would mean that his first revelation was not full and complete. Will He come again �in glory� (not as a human presence but as a spiritual experience that we will all �feel� at the same time or as a Resurrected presence?? To individual humans or to all humanity at once??) I am not sure. Nor am I really sure what that means J because the event seems to �step out of time� and into eternity.

As regards his speech concerning the destruction of the Temple, and end time, and the �coming� of the Son of Man (Matthew 24) I can show you that he was speaking about his own crucifixion and resurrection. Correlate Matt 24: and Mark 13 and Luke 21 as they are three different human perspectives of the same event. There is much going on and each experienced the event in a slightly different way. When you correlate all three - each clarifies the other.

The scene is that Jesus is leaving the Temple with his disciples (maybe just the 12) and there is a crowd about him. More than one disciple is admiring the beauty of the Temple and then one disciple steps forward to Jesus and asks �Rabbi (Master) - isn�t the Temple building beautiful?� and Jesus replies �Do you see this stuff - not one stone will be left upon another.� Clearly he is talking about the eventual destruction of the physical Temple and we know that to have taken place in 70 AD.

Next - they have now separated from the public crowd. Jesus and the 12 are alone (�they came to him privately�) on the Mount of Olives (which we can compare to a public park in which this homeless band often camped out). Peter, James, John and Andrew are still discussing the Temple and what Jesus had said - and they come to him and then one (probably Peter) asks him a question related to what they were discussing. We also know that Jesus often talked plainer when they were alone. Mark and Luke can be combined into this �

�Rabbi - tell us when are these things to happen and what will be the sign when these things begin to come to pass?�

So far they seem to be referring to the destruction of the Temple that will take place in 70 AD - but - let us read on and see�

NOW read Matthew to get a more complete concept of the question asked and what exactly is the �sign� they are talking about�

�Tell us when are these things to happen and what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the world.�

So the question put to Jesus was - when will these things take place (the destruction of the Temple) and what will be the sign (events surrounding) his coming at the end times. And you are right - it is �both� the destruction of the Temple and his �coming� as the Son of Man. Somehow they are the same thing - but how?

Jesus answers (again, correlate each account to get the full picture). The very first thing He does is caution them not to be fooled into a wrong interpretation of what he had said publicly about the destruction of the Temple (and he is about to give them the real meaning) because many will come to them (to the disciples themselves) saying �I am the messiah - and the time (of my coming) is - now�. � then he goes on to describe - what?? He goes on to describe the real meaning of the destruction of the Temple, what the sign is and when it shall be his �coming� at the end-time as the Son of Man.

Jesus goes on to describe that they will hear talk of wars and rumors of the possibility of war, and insurrection and revolt. But when they hear this talk - the end (and his coming) will not be just yet nor all at once. Nation will rise up against nation and kingdom against kingdom and there will be famine, earthquakes, and pestilence (and one is reminded of the plagues of the Exodus) and great signs from the heavens. He is now finished with the description of the destruction of the Temple, end time and coming.
How do we know he finished? Because he next moves on to describe what personal troubles will come to the disciples following that.

�But all these things (I have just described) are the beginning of your (own) sorrows.� and then Jesus goes on to describe the personal sorrows of the disciples that will follow the destruction of the Temple, end time and his coming as the Son of Man.

Let us - back up. Obviously we have missed something if we are expecting this �coming as the Son of Man� to be the Second Coming and yet happen 2000 year later and the apostles are already long dead. Let us look as see what circumstance within the life time of the apostles fit the description just given.

What Jesus describes as the destruction of the Temple, the sing, the end, and his coning - are exactly the events of his own arrest, trail, crucifixion and resurrection (�I am the true Temple - if you destroy this temple I will rise it up again on the third day.�)

How so?

Everyone expected the messiah to re-establish Israel as a geo-political power. Herod, Judas, and the other disciples and public - expected that Jesus would be swept into power and placed on the throne as the rightful King of Israel (Son of David). All speculated that a Maccabean like insurrection would take place, Herod would be deposed, Jesus would become King, and the occupying Roman forces would be pushed out by force or by miracles. This popular revolt would, of course, draw down upon Israel and Jerusalem a Roman response of more troops (war).

When Jesus was arrested and brought to trial before the Sanhedrin, the initial charges against him were sedition. He maintained that he was the true and rightful king. But when he also identified himself as God (Yahweh - the great �I am� that spoke to Moses) the High Priest went for blasphemy and closed the proceedings.

An occupied city - the Temple police has no power to perform and execution - so they had to go to the Roman governor. Once there - Pilot could not care less about the charge of blasphemy - so the High Priest changed it to make Pilot aware of the probability of armed insurrection and revolt and - war! And that if Pilot did not kill this �king� then surely he would be re-called back to Rome and asked why he did not stop things. Before that point - the public crowd that was following - did not say much. They were rubber-necking. But when the possibility of Rome coming to crush a revolt was tabled - they went into anti-war fear and wanted the supposed king - crucified.

So now we have covered �war and rumors of war and insurrection� because the very reasons surrounding the arrest and trial of Jesus were accusations and expectations of popular insurrection, revolt - and the insurrection being crush by Rome.

Nation against nation? The vise of Israel and Rome. Kingdom against kingdom? the Kingdom of God against the kingdom of this world.

But the trial itself is not - the end. The End (which is also his �coming�) is accompanied by famine, pestilence, and earthquakes.

�I am the bread of life� he who eats this bread has life.� = famine when taken away and killed. Pestilence is when the crowd is �demonically� overcome and shouts for his crucifixion. Now - let us look at earthquakes (one of the three that will cement the first two).

The gospels record that - at the moments that Jesus died on the cross - there were earthquakes AND people who had died were resurrected and seen around town.

And here ends Jesus� description of the destruction of the Temple, the signs involved, and the end in which the Son of Man �comes�. So his �coming� IS - his resurrection.

Now we can read on again where Jesus describes the sorrows that the apostles will experience because of his arrest, trial, death, and resurrection. Read it for yourself and now you can make sense of it (Matthew 10:17 on) and you will see that it describes how they would be thrown out of the synagogues they would go to preach in, how they too would be arrested and hauled to trials, how families would be split by this, and how many of the Christians they convert and who actually get the Holy Spirit - will fall away because of the persecutions - renounce Christ in order to live and not be persecuted anymore.

�And this gospel will be preached to all nations for a witness - and then the end will come.�

In context, one must realize that to a Jew of the time, there was only one nation (Israel) chosen by God. To say that the gospel will be preach to all nations is equal to saying that the gospel will not be preached to the Jews alone - but also to the gentiles (all nations).

Next - now HERE is a mystery - because it is clear that Jesus means the �end will come� to be the individual and personal death of each apostle - just in the same way he had called his own death �the end time� and �the end.�

Paul clearly shows us that these new Christians did not consider themselves anything more than REAL Jews and the REAL Israel. John makes that clear also when he speaks of those who �have the appearance of Jews but are not Jews�. And the earliest disciples after the resurrection attended all Temple ceremonies and synagogue services as Jews who were to re-new and restore Israel to the real revelation of Moses - thanks to the messiah Moses predicted.

But here in Matthew 10:23 - where Jesus tells them they will not finish going through all the new congregations of the new Israel (obviously the congregations among the gentiles is also included) before they will - see the end. And here their own individual end (being killed) is equated with Jesus end in which he is revealed in �coming� as the Son of Man (God in the flesh). �When they persecute you in one place flee to another - I tell you that you will not have gone through all the you will not have gone through all the places of Israel before the Son of Man comes�.

We have already established that the persecution of the apostles takes place after, and because of, the �end� of Jesus which is his death and resurrection and within also he is revealed as the Son of Man (his coming). The �end� for each apostle is each own individual death which will take place after the gospel is begun to be preached to the gentiles and before they have visited all the congregations that will spring up. And their own �end� will be a coming of the Son of Man.

There is no other way to interpreter this�. unless we wish to say that Jesus himself was mistaken about the time of the �second coming� in as much as he said that it would be within or at the moment of the end of the apostles lives. AND - there is a definite time sequence of events here - from the trial, death and resurrection - up to and ending with the death of the individual apostles.

This is the way I read it.

By the way - you are Coptic Orthodox!? Boy do I have questions for you! My own personal studies of biblical antiquities - are very interested in the first school of catechetics founded by St. Mark in Alexandria� and in the desert monks called the �Thebans�. My questions will not be difficult but I will send them in private as they will be boring to anyone else.

I'm not sure what passage this is, this is what I could find:

Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows .

Mar 13:8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there shall be earthquakes in different places, and there shall be famines and troubles. These things are the beginnings of sorrows.

Jesus died and had a physical resurrection, in the same body he died in:

"Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." 20 The Jews therefore said, "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body ," (John 2:19-21).

"For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong. 18For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh , but made alive in the spirit; 19in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water." (1 Pet. 3:17-20).

As for the evangelization of the Gospel before the second coming Mt. 24 this relates to Rev. 14:6-8 which occurs during the tribulaiton. A list of signs that must occur before the second coming, are physical and are hard to interpret allegorically:

Counterfeit Christianity-False christs and prophets who will deceive many (Matt. 24:5, 11).

Wars and rumors of wars (Matt. 24:6).

Political turmoil, famine, disease and earthquakes (Matt.24:7)

Martyrdom, betrayals within families (Matt. 24:9-10).

The regathering of elect Israel (a believing remnant) from the four corners of the earth (Matt. 24:31).

Days like unto the days of Noah (Matt. 24: 37-39).

A ten nation confederacy of the revived Roman Empire (Dan. 2; Rev. 13). (The European Union)

Construction of the temple in Jerusalem (Dan. 9:26, 27).

Visible, physical signs in the earth, sun, moon and stars (Luke. 21:25; Joel 2:30, 31).

Men's hearts failing them for fear (Luke. 21:26).



A case can be made for both a physical and spiritual resurrection depending on what system of theology you are using to interpret the Holy Bible. It was confusion that stemmed from protestant theology used to interpret Scriptures that eventually brought me into the bosom of the Church. I hope this helps.

In Christ,
Gideon
PS> My only problem with allegorical interpretation is that anything can be take out of it�s literal context even if it was suppose to be interpreted in a literal matter. Once you cast doubt on the physical return of Christ you cast doubt on his crucifixion and Ascension. IMO of course�

Gideon...

Yes.. I should have been more careful... the destruction of the 'Temple' Jesus was talking about was his own physical death.

I was my intention to say that that the sorrows he was about to speak about were to follow upon his own death and physical ressurection. That Matt 24 has a timeline begining with his arrest and ending with the presonal death of the apsoles... and nothing further than that.

These things are difficult and deep and I am very impressed by your own research and blanced views.

I do believe in our own physical resurection - that the human is not whole without his body - but how that fits in I am not sure and I do see that there has been some mixing of a "personal" or perenial "second coming" with some type of "after this whole creation thing is over" second coming.

I need to take some time to re-read your remarks and visit a few of the links you have posted.

In the mean time, if I have not said this before... here is a book on the Revelation which - to me - swept aside all other books because of this man's great knowledge of Old Testament images and Jewish traditions used by John.
http://www.thegenesisletters.com/PrivateLibrary/Corsini/Corsini.htm

The book is out of print and I do have permission from the orginal publisher to post it for friends for personal study. You may "Save As..." and keep it and I am making a better copy when I get the time.

I am very glad you have given me your opinon on these things.

I too believe this. But I'm not sure what happens to the soul after death I do not believe in "soul sleep" as Adventist believe...what are your thoughts?(or should we start another topic or even use the PM system?)

Thank you for the link, I'm on vacation right now (and I end up spending my time studying Orthodoxy ) but once back to work I will make myself a copy.

God bless,
Gideon

Dear RayK,

Put me in with the 2% who agree.

I would like to ask, did you study under P.N.T. ?

In Christ,
Andrew.

Sorry I took so long to answer. I try to steer clear of this boad sometimes, not because people here are not good company (they are) but because it can become addicting.

No, I don't know who P.N.T. is. ?

My background is about a 30 year study of Hebrew trastions and biblical antiquitieis - my concentration being there I was a bit surprised to find it began to open some aspects of the N.T - in as much as the gospels and letters are written by Jews and display (under the Greek) very Hebrew minds.

But the whole concept, as commonly understood, of a Second Coming within time and history just does not make senses (as it is commonly expressed).
There has got to be something misunderstood.

When I understood Matt 24 in a new way that was an eye opened.

Dear RayK,

You may like to read some of the scriptural studies written by Paul Nadim Tarazi, but I doubt that you need to. In other words, you have the same key that he does to unlock the meaning - you understand the text from the rest of the text while recognizing surrounding contexts to the text.

Tarazi has published through St. Vladimir's Orthodox Theological Seminary Press www.svots.org [svots.org] where he also is professor of Old and New Testament Studies. He also taught a Holy Cross Greek Orthodox Theological Seminary.

Wishing you a blessed feast of the Incarnation of God!

In Christ,
Andrew

Did I miss something? The Catholic Church condemn a personal return of Jesus Chirst?
No way! What they did condemn was "millenialism" that there would be a literal thousand year reign.
As far as I know we still believe that "Jesus will come again to judge the living and the dead" and that at the end of time.
And that return is personal and physical.

Stephanos I

If I remember correctly, the end times began when Christ was crucified, died, and ressurected, then assended into heaven, and sent the Holy Spirit to form His Church. That means we have been living in them for the last 2003 years.

Scripture says to be ready. If your life is in right order with God, he is going to take care of you. Scripture also says because we are faithful he will be faithful to us for generations. So to me, this means he will also take care of those He has given us responcibility for.

So if we are faithful and obediant to God, His Word Incarnate, the Holy Spirit, Scripture, the Church, His Ten Commandments, leaning not unto our own understanding, but trusting in His....then why be concerned? It will be taken care of, for as Scripture also says today has enough cares of it's own.

Rose