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#130811 11/28/03 02:28 PM
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For you voF's (Veteran's of the Forum, as opposed to VoF's, Virgins of the Forum) you probably recall a discussion we previously had regarding the various elements of the Nativity icon. I tried to search for it but came up empty.

Anyway, you may also recall the discussion we had regarding the nurse maids (often depicted in the left hand lower corner although this varies). We mentioned that this was, at one time, embarrassing to the monks of the Holy Mountain, since it had no apparent scriptural basis.

Well, I propose that this may have arisen from the Apochryphal "Ascension of Isaiah." I am posting this entire book and encourage you to read it. The imagery of Christ descending from the 7th heaven to become human is exceedingly beautiful.

Anyway, I direct your attention to chapter 11 in which it is stated that Mary was found to be Virginal after the Nativity. This would have required the presence of nurse-maids, mid-wives', etc. I propose that this may be the font of this tradition.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ascension.html

If anyone can recall what other potential sources we came up with, I would most appreciate it.

John, SoF, voF*

SoF=Sinner of the forum, for those of you not used to the practice, you always list your highest degree first

#130812 11/29/03 06:44 PM
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The account of the "nursemaids" (actually midwives, I think most would accept Mary nursed the Infant), can be found in the infancy narratives of the apocryphal writings. Both the Proto-evangelium of James and the Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew describe the activity of the midwives. I imagine there are others. James only accounts for one midwife, Salome, Pseudo-Matthew accounts for two, Zelomi and Salome.

#130813 11/29/03 08:54 PM
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Thanks John;

After I posted I remembered the Protoevangelium. I am not sure I've ever read Pseudo-Matthew but I will. I wish I could find the old discussion. I seem to remember that it was a good one.

John

#130814 11/29/03 09:01 PM
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John,

I looked and found it earlier - then the baby woke up and demanded feeding. Will relocate it and post it in a bit.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
#130815 11/29/03 09:35 PM
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Petrus

Think this is what you're looking for:

Nativity Icon

There is another - a single post by you in reply to - hmm, think it was Sharon Mech discussing a Nativity Icon - wherein you raise the issue - but there's no followup by anyone on the point.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
#130816 11/30/03 04:30 PM
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Dear Friends,

There all kinds of traditions associated with the Nativity that are sometimes included in various Nativity icons.

I have one where about seven such scenes are depicted, including one where God hid Mary with Her Child in a mountain when the Roman soldiers went looking for them.

While we need not accept them, these traditions do underline the fact that not all that we believe or celebrate liturgically is in the scriptures alone.

Alex

#130817 12/01/03 12:12 AM
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Neil;

Thank you, a 1000 thank you's.

This is exactly the thread I was looking for. It particularly highlights all of the Apocryphal elements of the Western Christmas story as well as our beloved Nativity icon.

John

#130818 12/01/03 02:21 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by Irish Melkite:
John,

I looked and found it earlier - then the baby woke up and demanded feeding. Will relocate it and post it in a bit.

Many years,

Neil
Ha!

Neil,

when I first read your post I thought you were defending Petrus' comment that the women were in fact nursemaids and the baby to whom you were refering was the Divine Infant. biggrin That's what I get for reading the post at 2:00 AM while I trying put my own 2 year old back to sleep (we're trying to wean her.)

#130819 12/01/03 02:13 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Deacon John Montalvo:
Quote
Originally posted by Irish Melkite:
[b] I looked and found it earlier - then the baby woke up and demanded feeding.
Neil,

when I first read your post I thought ... that ... the baby to whom you were refering was the Divine Infant. biggrin That's what I get for reading the post at 2:00 AM while I trying put my own 2 year old back to sleep (we're trying to wean her.) [/b]
hmm ... looks at Caelin .oO(... divine ... yes, ... Divine ... no).

I know that feeling of trying to read posts in the wee hours, cradling baby in left arm, holding bottle with right, somehow typing, while manuevering mouse (which is on the left side of keyboard - to accomodate my wife's sinister sidedness). Note that most of my posts are timed during hours of darkness.

At least at 2 years, John, yours is holding onto the bottle herself - I live for that achievement at the moment (mine'll [is that a legit contraction?] just be 5 months tomorrow).

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
#130820 12/01/03 05:54 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Irish Melkite:

At least at 2 years, John, yours is holding onto the bottle herself - I live for that achievement at the moment (mine'll [is that a legit contraction?] just be 5 months tomorrow).

Many years,

Neil [/QB]
Actually Neil, the reason I had my daughter was to allow my wife some rest (none of our six children took to a bottle.)

#130821 12/01/03 07:50 PM
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Father Deacon John,

I personally think that children who refuse the bottle as infants will never develop drinking problems as adults!

Alex

#130822 12/01/03 08:19 PM
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(ROTFLOL)

Alex,

you know the bottle is not necessarily a bad thing... when compared to other alternatives. You must have heard the old saying, "I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy." biggrin

#130823 12/01/03 08:25 PM
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Dear Father Deacon John,

Anyone with six children must know what they are saying - and doing!

Alex

#130824 12/01/03 11:52 PM
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Cheers to Neil, the Irish Melkite Nursemaid!

(The imagination goes wild with this picture.)

John


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