www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Visit of the Magi in Scripture

Lawrence,

I spoke with a friend about this. He used a useful phrase "it's a different event."

It may also be interesting to consider that in Byzantine iconography the Magi are not pictured with the Christ in the icon of his birth, they are sometimes shown travelling, but they are not there yet.

T

I alos feel that it is a different event. I don't want to lead a "Ban the Magi from crib scenes" movement or anything like that - was just curious as to how and why they were added.

Well - it has to be admitted our Crib [ RC Parish] does not show one of the Magi in the Scene itself - but outside a wee way away . For Midnight Mass there is just the one to be seen - but he is placed nearer each day and his Companions join him so that by Epiphany we have all 3 Magi present with the Infant Christ and His Mother

Lawrence and Tony,

Not impossible, I agree, although unlikely that such large animals as a cow were stabled in the immediate living area. Certainly, the usage of a ground floor for stabling with living quarters on the floor above was not an unknown arrangement and is still practiced in parts of the world.

Given that we have no evidence for how long a period elapsed before the Family fled to Egypt, it's not unreasonable to conclude that they may have resided for some period in Bethlehem prior to departing. That period could have been anywhere from the two weeks that, in real time, would account for dating the Magi's visit in January, or it could easily have been a longer period, explaining Herod's choice of two years as the upper age limit of the male children to be slaughtered.

The latter suggests that the Magi, in their initial conversation with him, were uncertain as to the actual date on which the Child was born. Not unreasonable - I don't know that anyone has ever firmly established that either the prophecies on which they relied or their actual observation of the Star was tied in time to the Birth itself or was a portent of its future happening - allowing them time to arrive and be present at it. The latter seems unlikely because of the differences between Luke and Matthew in relating the matters of the Birth and the Magi's arrival.

Since one can presume that the Star which guided them was visible from the inception of their journey until its conclusion, I suppose one could look to some of the works that have been written over the years regarding the visibility of various heavenly bodies that have been proposed as the Star of Bethlehem. I would be surprised if none of those treatises have indicated the period of time during which the Star would have been visible. Such might suggest how long the travelers followed it.

The placement of the Magi in the stable or cave scene itself, whether on Christmas Day or Epiphany, is almost certainly a convenience to human understanding. It offers the symbolic statement that Christ's birth was for all mankind, the poor and low-born shepherds and the rich, high-born, and educated Magi, as well as the choirs of Heaven. It would be much more difficult to convey that same understanding if the Magi's arrival were separated entirely from the visualization of Christmas morning.

Many years,

Neil

Pretty close to my own views Neil - thanks !!

I wasen't trying to make a case against it being two seperate events, but rather that the events could have occured fairly close to one another. I personally like the idea of a manger display with the Magi shown slightly off in the distance. Since we're setting up our first one ever this year, I may consider doing that.

Dear Friends,

Actually, the fact is that the visit of the Magi was once celebrated, in the West, on the same day as Christmas and Epiphany.

A Monk of the Eastern Church wrote this up in the "Year of Grace."

That is why the Magi have always been portrayed near the Christmas Crib - a tradition followed by St Francis.

Archbishop Fulton Sheen once said that the Christ Child was visited "by the very simple (shepherds) and the very educated (the Magi) - these are the two classes of men that seek Him and are present by His Manger - but never the man of one book who thinks he knows everything."

As for the animals, I grew up in a French habitant house that had stalls in the basement for livestock during the winter months. The house was heated by coal and the coal was kept in the stalls. The East Slavic tradition is to feed the livestock FIRST on Nativity Eve as they accepted Christ amongst themselves and warmed Him when humans could find no room for Him.

A Ukrainian tradition is that spiders covered Him with their cobwebs and so spiders are considered good creatures, they are not to be killed and to see a spider means good luck will follow - the angel hair on Christmas trees has to do with spiders' webs.

(I named our large outdoor garden spider "Felix" after Pope St Felix who is their formal patron.)

But I personally do admire the Western tradition of celebrating the coming of the Magi over the 12 days of the Nativity.

One Francophone friend placed his images of the Magi closer and closer to his Christmas Crib as January 6th came along . . .

I also love the way the Latin American peoples have crowned images of the Christ Child for Epiphany (which is where, I believe, the devotion to the Infant of Prague originated).

Our French bakeries here sell a special "Epiphany cake" that is topped with a crown in honour of the three kings.

Alex

Hello all,
The book I am reading by Hildesheim, mentions that the star appeared on the day of the birth, and that a voice could be heard from it announcing the birth of Christ. Since it appeared 13 days elapsed as the magi followed it first to Jerusalem, where they met eachother for the first time, and then on to Bethlehem. During these 13 days they did not need to stop once, or eat or drink or rest.
Of course, Hildesheim also mentions small men who are born in the east, deaf because of the sound made by the firmament near the place where the sun rises, who communicate through signs made by their hands and are very astute business men... The preface to this new edition does stress that he tended to disregard any barrier between known facts and myth regarding the magi, it's interesting none the less.
The return journey took longer, 2 years, as they no longer had the help of the star, and did have to stop to eat and rest etc. This apparently was to show them the difference between God's ways and Man's, could have been worse I suppose, they could have been 40 years in the desert...
In Portugal we also have a typical "King Cake" at Christmas time. It is not topped by a crown, but it's shape and decoration with Chrystalized fruit makes it look a little like a jewel studded crown.
In 1910, after the republic was declared, the fanatically anti-clerical republican regime decided to ban King Cake and gave us "Republic Cake" instead... Fortunately that did not last long.
Filipe

I just want to thank you Neil for all you posted about the magi....Epiphany....which we usually call "the feast of the three kings" is a great favorite of the three of us in my family as well.....

Since on this day, New Calendar, our brethren of the Coptic, Ethiopian, Eritrean, Chaldean, Assyrian, Malabarese, and Malankarese Churches observe the Feast of St Melchior, it seemed fit to resurrect this thread.

May the Blessed Magi intercede before the Child to gift all with peace, health, and happiness.

Many years,

Neil

What's scary here is that I can't remember posting in this thread. I must be unconsciously deleting brain circuits after 5 years.

But seriously, I do remember posting a link to an article about the route of the Magi but I don't know how to find it.

My church is blessed with thick 19th century walls and therefore deep (12 inch) windowsills.

The ceramic Magi and camels appear on the back most window benches on Gaudete Sunday when the creche first makes its appearance. They advance week after week until tonight, when the children carry them to their stable-destination.,

Lawrence, my brother,

Would this be it?

Many years,

Neil

Yesterday, Jan. 6th, we (Orthodox of the new calendar) celebrated the blessing of the waters/baptism of Jesus by St. John the Baptist..this we call 'Theophany' or 'Epiphany'. These blessed waters will now be used by our priests to bless homes this coming week.

When is this feast of the Baptism of our Lord celebrated in other churches?

I wonder why the Epiphany is the feast day of the three kings and not the baptism of Jesus in the West?

Any clarification as to the historical reasons for this would be appreciated.

(P.S...that would mean that in my tradition, Theophan had a feast day!!--so happy name day to him--even if it is only his screename/moniker! )

Originally, everything was one Feast--as the Armenians still maintain today (yesterday for them was both Nativity and Theophany rolled into one, and their Theophany includes both the Baptism and the Visitation.

As Father Taft explains, these Feasts, at their root, do not simply commemorate certain events in salvation history, but are manifestations of God With Us. Originally, all the various manifestations were clustered together, but over time they were distributed over the calendar. A separate Feast of the Nativity originated in the West, while the West accepted Epiphany/Theophany in a 4th century exchange of feasts. The West celebrates Epiphany as the Visitation of the Magi, which is the revelation of Christ to the Gentiles. We in the East celebrate Theophany as the Baptism in the Jordan, because we already commemorate Christ's revelation to the Gentiles in the Feast of the Presentation, more properly called the Hypoponte or "Encounter" of the Lord with Simeon and Anna in the Temple. As the Canticle says, "A light of revelation to the Gentiles, and the glory of Thy people, Israel".