www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Scripture and Patristic Writings Reincarnation of Elias?

I understand that there is a connection between the Prophet Elias (Elijah) and Saint John the Forerunner. Many Christians refer to John as "the Second Elias", or sometimes just "Elias." So, how deep does the connection run between Elias and John? Is John almost a reincarnation of Elias? I know that the Jews believe(d) that Elias must return as a precursor of the Messiah.

What's the connection?

Logos Teen

I think it is most apparent in reverse chronological order.

Luke 1:17 "He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, "to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,' and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

Matthew 11:13-14 All the prophets and the law prophesied up to the time of John. "And if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah, the one who is to come. Whoever has ears ought to hear.

Malachi 3:23 Lo, I will send you Elijah, the prophet, Before the day of the Lord comes, the great and terrible day, "to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers."

Isaiah 40:3 A voice cries out; In the desert prepare the way of the Lord! Make straight in the wasteland a highway for our God!

John the Tishbite

Thanks, Petrus. I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think that necessarily helps me, seeing that that isn't the order of how the events unfolded in history.

Logos Teen

OK I will try again.

Matthew 17:10-13 And His disciples asked Him saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?" Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands." Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.

Malachi 4:5 Look, I shall send you the prophet Elijah before the great and terrible day of the Lord comes. He will reconcile parents to their children..."

John the Tishbite

Dear Teen Logo,

It is true that our Lord identifies St John the Forerunner with St Elias and this in terms of their similar mission in announcing the Kingdom of God and repentance.

For this reason, the Eastern Church venerates both as the founders of the penitent monastic life.

Happy May 24th coming up by the way!

I know it is an important day for all Methodists and it is also the day of commemoration of John and Charles Wesley.

Alex

Thank you very much, Alex! Although, I must say, I'm much more excited about the Tridentine-rite Mass being celebrated on that date in Santa Maria Maggiore in Roma by Cardinal Castrillon +Hoyos!

Dominus Vobiscum,
Logos Teen

Petrus,

Thanks again! That helps a little bit more. I guess my problem is that the New Testament seems to speak of St. John the Forerunner as St. Elias metaphorically, whereas it seems apparent that in pre-Christian times, Judaism understood that the return of Elias would actually include the Elias in bodily form; almost a reincarntion (though I suppose since he was assumed into Heaven he never lost his body in the first place...perhaps "reterrestrialization" would be a better word). Then again, I learned well enough in Methodist Sunday School that the a lot of Jews weren't that accurate when it came to predicting things!!

Logos Teen

Dear Teen Logo,

In a book entitled, "A Rumour of Bishops," suggested to me years before by Fr. Serge Keleher, there is reference made to John Wesley himself seeking consecration as a bishop, on the principle of ekonomia, by the Orthodox Church.

It did not materialize and the schism in Anglicanism occurred later as a result.

Wesley was most devoted to a number of Eastern traditions, like the twice weekly fast and read and even, according to him, "venerated" the Eastern Fathers.

He also prayed using an Eastern-style "prayer rope" which he made by simply tying knots on a cord.

I used to have a Methodist prayer book that had a section dedicated to the prayer rope and recommended its use.

Perhaps your Methodist background should be leading you Eastward? What do you think?

Alex

Alex,

I'm green with envy! You know more about Methodism than I do! But, you do have a few decades more experience in these matters.

I have zero problem with the East, and its riches are beyond comprehension, no doubt. Despite this, I generally feel called to be a Roman Catholic, realizing that Roman Catholicism also has innumerable spiritual benefits.

But, who knows? I'm 16 years old, I'm not even in the Church yet (which I am really upset with my self about; maybe I'll take some action soon), and I've got time to decide and to learn more.

Thanks for the smile.

Christos Anesti,
Logos Teen

Dear Logos Teen;

You are actually on a very important pursuit regarding eschatology. The Jewish teaching on Elijah's return at the Messiah's coming is completely in line with Christian teaching!

Christians believe that Elijah (and Elisha) will return prior to the second coming of Christ so as to prophesy once again.

Revelation 11:3-7 "And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive tress and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the eart with all plagues, as often as they desire. When they finsih their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them."*


This provides the answer as to why these two prophets did not taste death. They are not immune to death, their death has been delayed. For theosis, in our understanding, can only be completed through death and resurrection in Christ. If they do not die, they cannot taste the fullness of life everlasting. The Baptizer on the other hand, has fulfilled his destiny.

John

*The imagery (olive trees, lampstands) is first elucidated in Zechariah 4. The powers attributed to them are reminiscent of their stories in 1 and 2 Kings.

That's very interesting John. That answers a lot of questions.

If Elias is one of the prophets who will return, who is the other? Enoch (since he was also assumed into Heaven)?

Logos Teen

Dear Teen;

Yes, please excuse me. In my post above your last, "Elisha" should be Enoch.

Jude 14-15, Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

John

In the Jewish and Catholic religion... there is no re-incarnation.

Neither is there re-incarnation in any other Eastern religion - but people who do not understand the concept interprete it in a fundamental and physical way and so many people will swear there is re-incrnation in Eastern religions.

Incarnation, in the original Eastern concept - means that one's spirit is submerged, obsessed, swallowed up - by the body. The man's spirit (mind) has lost its spiritual freedom and is following and imprisoned in carnal inclinations.

In the Jewish concept (from which the Christian comes) the serpent is also a leviathan (large beast) dragon (symbolic of the inner fire of physical creation) and a whale or large fish (like in Noe and Tobit) in which the spiritual man is swallowed up into the darkness of the underworld.

In the Jewish and Christian concept - what is passed down from prophet to prophet - is a spiritual office. For example, the Prophet Isaiah ran a "school of the prophets" like that school the King David joined when he danced in ectasy - and after the death of the original Isaiah one of his disciples would then be appointed through Providential means, to fill his office and become the new Isaiah. From the books of Isaiah in the bible it appears there were three who filled the office of Isaiah. These were real communities that followed the spiritual teaching and ideals of the prophet - complete with communal living and children born within the community. The number of disciples could be very large but only 12 would be appointed in the role of apsotles (just as in the Temple and with the Rabbis).

"He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah�� you see, the office, not in the body of Elijah.

Christ was well aware that many people have a difficulty in rising from a physical interpretation to a spiritual interpretation�. And so we hear Jesus apparently seeming to give conflicting times for Elijah�

"Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands." Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.

John was not physically Elijah - but fulfilled his spiritual office. John may have been schooled in the school of Elijah and may have actually held that position - I do not know - but the point is John spiritual fulfilled that role as the one who said "Behold the Lamb of God" and subjegated his own role as prophet to the higher office of the messiah.

Meaning that it is the coming event of the death and resurrection of Jesus in which �all things� are restored to their proper Providence in the hearts of men and it is within the death and resurrection of Jesus that the world has come to an end (meaning fate or destiny devoid of Providence).

One also can see this in the New Testament regarding the Anti-Christ - who is yet to come - but yet already is (John in the Apocalypse and in his letters).

The concept of Elias coming and the Anti-Christ coming, and indeed Christ coming - must be un-bound from an expectation that it will happen in history (a certain date or time) of which no date or time exists.

The section in Genesis regarding the so-called assumption of Enoch and his body into heaven - is a mistranslation of the text. First off, it is a cosmology. Second off the text indicates that the spirit of Enoch (which means to walk with God and let God lead the way) allows one to be �transformed� (not �transmigrated� as most old translators thought.). They could only think of it as a history book and did not know it was a cosmology. Not knowing what to do with 'transmigrated' they assumed it meant that he was bodily taken up into heave (the sky). It's proper meaning is that those who follow on Providence (walk behind God - as if you were walking together but God was leading) come into the mystical marriage that Jesus spoke so much about.

Dear Ray;

While I would never claim to understand what exactly is meant by these prophecies, I must respectfully disagree with your analysis above.

Yours is a liberal, and thus modern translation of these texts. It does not represent the understanding of those alive at biblical times, nor is it reflected in the Commentaries of the Church Fathers. If you look at, for example, Jerome (representing the West) and Chrysostom (representing the East), you will find that they interpreted these passages as I have reflected above. (After all, that is where I got them.)

While a cannot quibble regarding your statements on mistranslation and the teaching on Enoch, I do think they are incomplete.

Much of the understanding of Enoch as prophet is based on an apochryphal text, the Book of Enoch.

John

Dear John,

And, as you know, Enoch is considered inspired scripture in the Ethiopian and possibly one or two other Oriental Churches.

Certainly, Tertullian and some others regarded it as inspired OT scripture.

Alex